JFK Records, LBJ, Etc. with Jim DiEugenio, Andrew Iler, and Mark Adamczyk

Speaker 3It's been a little while since I have my co-authors from the JFK assassination chokeholds on the show, so I wanted to bring back Jim Andrew and Mark. In this episode, we'll get an update on the state of the JFK records. Talk about the McCone rally memo that keeps coming up and go over some thoughts on LBJ along with some other stuff. First, I do have a quick program note in terms of the show schedule. I was planning to go live this week with the first episode in the Mafia series. Then I remembered that my producer slash audio engineer is an actual rock star who helps operate a major music festival in Ocean City, Maryland, shut out to the Carousel Motel Bobby Baker. Anyway, it's every year in late September, it's called Ocean's Calling. Jerry DePiezo, the producer, plays three sets with his band OAR, and he helps coordinate the overall festival which has 50,000 people per day. Long story short, I can't get in the studio for a couple of weeks, so we had to delay the mafia just a bit.

Speaker 3We'll be off next week, but I will have a fun YouTube slash Patreon interview with AJ Webberman if you want to check that out. After that, we'll be off and running on the series, exploring whether the mafia had any involvement in the assassination of President Kennedy. We're joined by distinguished author and screenwriter of Oliver Stone's Destiny betrayed Jim D. Eugenio. as well as Canadian Attorney National Archives Explorer and JFK Records Act expert Andrew Eiler and attorney and JFK Records Act expert Mark Adamsick coming up next on solving JFK.

Speaker 1In Dallas, Texas, three shots were fired at President Kennedy's motorcade in downtown Dallas. The first reports say that President Kennedy has been seriously wounded by this shooting. The final, apparently official, this is the Kennedy die and come to the album, and come to the end of the time.

UNKNOWNI don't know if this is all about it.

Speaker 0That was the case. It's more interesting. The man may have formally charged the assassination question. I'm just a part of the magazine. I'm just a part of the magazine. I'm just a part of the magazine.

Speaker 1It's also a fact in a phone. It was the upper of a conspiracy. The mission answers acted in a long, a long, a long, a long, a long, a long, a long, a long, a long, a long, a long, a long, a long, a long, a long, a long, a long, a long, a long, a long, a long, a long, a long, a long, a long, a long, a long, a long, a long, a long, a long, a long, a long, a long, a long, a long, a long, a long, a long, a long, a long, a long, a long, a long, a long, a long, a long, a long, a long, a long, a long, a long, a long, a long, a long, a long, a long, a long, a long, a long, a long, a long, a long, a long, a long, a long

Speaker 3And everything happening with the committee so I thought, you know, Andrew and Mark kind of two of the best in the biz. So I guess why don't we maybe go ahead and get started with that update to the JFK records act pursuit of getting all these documents and where we are on things.

Speaker 2Yeah, you know, Matt, what I'm hearing through the grapevine is that the task force has been extended to the end of the year. I think you've made a note of that and one of your previous shows. And, but the The focus on the JFK records may be something that is a little less uncertain because the task force is focusing on UAPs right now and may focus on on the Epstein file. So JFK is one among many other matters that the task force has committed to tackling. There's RFK as well as Martin Luther King. So they have their hands full and it's almost October now. So we really don't know whether there's gonna be another hearing on JFK and the extent of energy and bandwidth that they have left for JFK. hope that the task force really does focus in on compliance on the JFK Records Act because, hey, there's a piece of legislation that specifically deals with it and requires Congress to have oversight over the JFK Records and to make sure that the JFK Records Act has been fully

Speaker 2some extraordinary steps to dig into and to correspond with Representative Luna and the task force.

Speaker 3So, let me ask you this. You had identified these final determination forms, some of them that you famously famously among the few thousand people who were following this clip. But truly, it wasn't a big deal. You found these forms. There should have been thousands more of them. Is there any update on that front in terms of where the rest of them are and can we find out any information about these specific documents?

Speaker 2Yeah, I don't think it's any secret, at least from my standpoint, that these ARRB final determination notifications, they're required by the act for every record. And as well, the administrative procedures act requires independent agencies to to provide adequate written reasons for all of their decisions, and there was definitely a standard of proof that applied, and the APA applies through section 11 of the JFK Records Act, and it actually specifies that all of the decisions are subject to judicial review under the APA. The Arab final determinations are not the written reasons of the Arab, I don't know what is, because adequate reasons have to provide fairly detailed justifications for any agency final action. And the only thing in my mind that was issued by the Arab are actual final determinations.

Speaker 3Mark, do we know what we have left and what's the status in terms of, you know, what's been disclosed? What's still out there? Because I think it was in maybe around like a thousand documents. But it's, you know, a lot of people think that, you know, as soon as Trump signed the thing, it was all done. Well, as we know, it wasn't done. A lot of, a lot of documents did come out. And it really was a declassification that was material. But we've got a a little bit of I was talking to more Jefferson Morley a couple episodes ago, we're a little cloudy on precisely where we are with things.

Speaker 4Right. No, and I think it's a good question and like Andrew said, with the other things that the task force wants to tackle and instead it would tackle over the rest of the year, we can't as we can not assume that there's going to be another hearing or significant work on the JFK records, at least while the task force is in place, they are going to issue a final report as we understand, and I think that final report, it's critical that it looks at what we have from Trump's executive order and what we don't have. So when the order was signed in January as we know, there was two excellent hearings, Jim was there in April first with Oliver Stone and Jefferson Morley. And then what really jumped off to me with respect to the records collection was Judge Tuneheim's testimony in May 20th about what he knew that the review board saw Um, and then, you know, he went out and said, like, look, I don't know what the big deal is with these continuing presidential delays.

Speaker 4It, uh, there should have only been about 1,500 records at the review board saw for Trump to maybe make a decision on in 2017. Instead, we saw white, white sweeping delays from Trump and Biden, and, you know, then we saw a, um, a records release in 2025 as the result of Trump's order, which was, specifically 2,566 new PDF records with for sure fewer or no redactions, but what we do not have from Trump's order and what I really want to see the task force focus on and its final report is we don't know what that released highs to in the official full collection of assassination records at Nera through an index and collection. We don't know what was released. Is that everything that the review board did see and all be at late? It is now out and fully released. Is that complied with? And then until we know that, we don't know the extent and the number of records at the review board never saw.

Speaker 4I mean, Judge Tuneheim said, look, you know, records were sent to Nera at a later time, meaning after the review board, so we don't have a full accounting mat of the full impact of Trump's order and the release of the records in 2025 without that full index at Nera of everything that was sent to the archives. before and after the review board and that's a key piece of oversight that I really want to see in the final report on this so that it can be carried forward. We know the job's not going to be done fully at the National Archives by January 1st of this year, but there can be a very solid blueprint based on the act put in place.

Speaker 2And, and Matt, if I can just jump in, that could be taken up by the full oversight committee of either the House or the Senate who has statutory authority over the JFK Records Act and and a mandate to conduct this kind of oversight with with the whole committee and I do have to say. Jim on Kennedy's in King. This isn't just Mark and I weighing in on this. I mean, Jim published two major pieces by Oliver Stone and Doug Korn on Kennedy's in King. And maybe he that this can segue into into those articles of Jim published.

Speaker 3Jim, you want to you want to talk about you want to comment on either of those?

Speaker 5Well, Oliver Stone calls me up one day and he says, Jim, you know, Rubio was the acting archivist of the United States, and I said, I thought he was Secretary of State National Security Advisor. Well, take a look, and you'll see, is the acting archivist now? And so I looked, I said, don't know, whatever's your right. He is the acting archivist. And he goes, well, in light of that, I think instead of sending my letter to Luna, I think I should and C. C. Luna, okay. So this was all his idea, all right, to go ahead and send it to Rubio. Now, me and Andrew did some work on it, okay. And he wanted to put it together in the final form, all right. And then once it was there, he actually tried to get it again delivered. He was gonna pay for a career. to actually put it right on the desk, but the National Archives won't allow you to do that. Okay. And so he sent it, you know, I was a priority mail with his name on it, et cetera.

Speaker 5And in that letter, he tried to bring to the attention of the acting archivist that there was this matter of the FDMs. The question is, you know, why are we still requesting that certain documents to be declassified? Okay, if you have these FDNs there, you know, which I admit are very hard to find. You know, Andrew only found 450 of them. Okay, there's probably literally hundreds if not thousands of them Oliver did go after the archivist also, okay? Because, you know, he literally said, you know, everyone I talk to says that whatever catalog or inventory you have is a streaming bloody math, you know, it's very, very difficult to find things, right? And by the way, and let's, Let's not forget this. This is literally breaking the law, okay? And by the way, and it's also breaking the law twice. It's in defiance of Congress, all right, because according to the JFKA, everything was supposed to be declassified in the fall of 2017, all right?

Speaker 5Donald Trump to actually issue an executive order, and that was eight months ago. So, is the National Archives literally above the law, both the executive branch and Congress? I mean, because because that's what we have here.

Speaker 3All right. It seems like they're writing on the the administrative error train that so many have have, you know, been carried by in the JFK assassination. Oops. I don't know. We lost it. You know, I don't know where that went. You know, we should have 27,000 of these, but we really have 450 in this press contacts box, you know, so.

Speaker 2You know, Matt, the big misunderstanding that a lot of people are having is that, you know, somehow Trump's great executive order, have them seismic move forward for us for the president of the United States to issue that order. But the fact is, section 11 of the JFK Records Act, says that any order or decision that's made that is to either obtain a record or to publicly release a record takes priority over all other laws and that would include executive orders. So that the concept that President Trump's executive order somehow supersedes the ARRB's final orders is a bit of a misconception of the law. And when you tie in the fact that President Clinton, By way of a memorandum of understanding, he approved with the ARB back in July of 1995, that memorandum in effect certified all of the ARB's decisions. All of the ARB's final determinations were in fact certified by President Clinton by way of this memorandum of understanding that no one had seen until July of this year.

Speaker 2And so this is a big thing, I don't know, maybe Mark wants to make that even more clear than I just tried to do.

Speaker 4No, no, I mean, Trump's order does say I think it's time to release everything, okay? And we saw over 2,500 files released, the problem is, is we don't know what everything is and how to account for it until the archive is does its administrative job of cataloging and indexing everything it's received. under the JFK Records Act, and so, you know, the oversight committees have continuing jurisdiction over the JFK Records Collection under the statute. It's within their purview to go to the archive, and say, do a darn index of everything you've ever got, especially before and after the review board, because the final determinations, once they're located, will answer what the review board did, then you have a full index, and with identification aids so that we know what work is left to be done. So while Trump's order, you know, could be viewed as a final presidential certification to release everything.

Speaker 4In other words, he's not going to override, you know, in authorizing the reductions anymore, we still don't know what everything is.

Speaker 2And Mark, maybe I'll throw in as, you know, with all respect and appreciation for President Trump's executive order, it has no enforcement mechanisms. But all of those enforcement mechanisms are available under the JFK Records Act. relegating the JFK Records Act and suggesting that the executive order supersedes it. He'll lose all of those enforcement mechanisms that the Act provides. And again, I don't want to downgrade President Trump's executive order because it's fantastic. And it has released a lot of new records. But to forgo the accountability and forcibility and transparency elements of the JFK Records Act, I personally think it's a big mistake and it's a loss for the entire research community that's gonna benefit from having like Mark, both of us keep pounding away here. We need a full index and catalog of records of the records in the collection are.

Speaker 3So as a practical matter, what's the most likely way to get that slash, where do you see this going from here? I mean, okay, the committee is going to issue a report, but we really need legislation, do we not to force, I mean, or is it, or do you think we should not have legislation because we already have, we already have the final orders.

Speaker 2Yeah. Yeah. Well, sorry, Mark. Look, the final determinations only cover the records that were reviewed by the ARRB. And what we believe happened based on records that we have seen from the CIA, and from the archives. It shows that records were transferred possibly before the ARRB was established and before the act was passed, but more likely that records were transferred to the National Archives. After the ARRBC Stitz operations in September of 1998, and Judge Tanheim's May 20th testimony, back-sought-up, when he says, hey, I've never seen a bunch of these records before. They were never shown to the ARRB, and that means that the ARRB never reviewed a whole bunch of the newly released records, and my reading of the metadata of these records show that they were transferred to Nera, some in November 1998, like two months after the Arab one out of business, or in the year 2000. So we got to know the

Speaker 2why these records were transferred late, were they withheld, what standards were they postponed under. There are so many questions with regard to all of these records that I think Congress, it just by nature of it's own act that was passed unanimously, has to follow up on this because it's really the burning question.

Speaker 4If you ask me, it's a conclude with Andrew said, leaving NARA and agencies to continue to interact with each other on the, you know, what's in the collection, are we going to release this now? What do you think? And then there's still, I know there's efforts to still search for records outside of the collection. That's fine, but we really need to focus on what is the collection now. And as everything been released, so Trump's order will meet its purpose. And the JFK Act will meet its stated purpose. So you just got to get an index of everything that's there to have a reference point. That's all.

Speaker 5The implication and all of us later, I believe, what he was trying to say, is that Luna should get the archivist whoever that person is under oath and question whoever that person is, male, female, okay? You know, why is there no usable index? Okay, what happened to the empty ends? Were they ever transferred to you? Or were they not? You know, and why, so what is it now? We're going in eight years past the deadline, why haven't you released everything? You know, because if you remember, if you remember, The way this all started, back in the summer of 2017, was that the chief archivist at that time, okay, the Kennedy stuff. Her name was Martha Sumplin. I can't remember her last name.

Speaker 4Murphy.

Speaker 5Yeah, that's it. Okay, Martha, Martha, she announced that look, I am going to release all this stuff. in October of 2017, and so what did the CIA and FBI know, what and what did they do? Knowing that she had said this in the summer of 2017, what did they do? They waited to the last day, okay, the last day, and they demanded a meeting in the what I usually call the blood on your hand speech. Okay. In other words, if you go ahead and release all this stuff today, we've got this 18-over in Morocco who's going to be named in it, and believe me, you're going to put his life in danger. And if that happens, we will get it all over the front page of the New York Times. Okay? All right? Okay, so that's how this always started. Okay, and then what happened as Andrew noted in his article for Kennedy's in King, it was possible to be worse than Trump by and did it, okay, he was actually worse than Trump, so then what I suspect happened is that Bobby Kennedy arranged a deal with Trump, you know, saying that, all right, I'll endorse you, but I want to things.

Speaker 5I want to be chair of the HHS, And I want you to sign an executive order deep classifying. And by the way, remember, his executive order is not just about the JFK case. It's also about the R of K and the king cases, all right? And so that's how we got to the point where we're at today. And that's why I think Oliver is rather And it has to be placed under oath either in a position or a public interview and ask what the heck is going on here.

Speaker 2Yeah, Tim, you always are so great. I got a, I love when you do it because that is how can you have this task force and congressional oversight without calling the archivist. It's just such a lost opportunity to really get to the bottom why all these records have been withheld for 60 years. And I don't recall the archive is testifying in the last 30 years since the ARB. I don't even know if the archive is testified at the time that the JFK Act was enacted by Congress. You probably have a better memory of that.

Speaker 5on the witness camp when the act was being counted.

Speaker 2You don't remember that.

Speaker 5I don't remember her being on the witness camp.

Speaker 2Yeah, yeah. And Matt, but just before we move on, maybe, Maybe Jim could mention Doug Horne's letters. He wrote three letters to the task force. I mean, it's first letter, I personally think is tremendously important in it. It deals with the evidence from the autopsy that he's been calling on for years. And then he actually wrote a letter about the ARB final determinations as a former senior staff person of the ARB.

Speaker 5Jim, does there anything that you can, no, I thought that that was actually Andrew's idea to have those printed, okay, and so I got him come talk with Doug and then he agreed to let us print those and I think the double whamming of Oliver and then Doug Horn, okay, I think that, you know, I think that inched us a little bit forward in the arena of debate about this issue. I think we might be making a little bit progress now. Doug, of course, was in charge of the military record. And he was involved with Jeremy Gun, Jeremy Gun, was the chief counsel of the ARP, right? and over a year-long investigation of the medical evidence in this case, the interview to 11 surviving people. And some of those interviews, I believe, were very, very important. OK, they have one dime who actually did the x-rays Okay, and they put the x-ray on the easel. And Jeremy Gun asked him, did you take this thing? And he got up, walked over, put his eyes right up against the x-ray.

Speaker 5And he said, you see those numbers at the bottom? He's were done in series. I didn't do X-rays in the series, okay? And then you see this, this is the wrong film, and by the way, I'm trying to duplicate how he said it, because his horn was right in the room. And he said, this is the way he was talking. He was excited, he was pausing, et cetera. This is the wrong film, because I didn't use the end scope. I used code app now.

Speaker 2Is that the photographer jammer or was that the x-ray technician though?

Speaker 5Don Stranger. Stranger. What was the photographer or the x-ray photographer? He was a visual photographer.

Speaker 6Yeah.

Speaker 5Now, I'm sending with three lawyers, right? If this was in a quarter long, Could you not move to have the case dismissed? Because you've uncovered fraud. And you've got the guy right on the stand. You've got the guy left. It took the riddle of pictures. And he said, no, I didn't take the pictures. you know.

Speaker 2I mean, Doug's letters specifically asks for missing photographs, missing x-rays, and other missing specific known documentation to either be destroyed or or or serapticiously You know, removed from from the official record and his letter is actually a killer letter and and really we haven't heard too much follow up on all the problems. We've got a lot of stuff from Joe and Edis and now Diaz, but there hasn't been really too much public follow up on on how the task forces pursued really the crucial autopsy evidence.

Speaker 5Yeah, and if you have you watch that hearing towards the end, Luna actually asked for him. Okay, what are the things you believe that are missing? And Warren, when I had and took out is what a list that he had prepared. Okay, and he dictated it. All right. So this is something that I at the very least, at the very least, should be in their final report. about these these missing very important, you know, articles of evidence in the Kennedy assassination. And I don't think to anybody who really studies this case, all right, I don't think there's any excuse at all for the absolutely awful terrible, almost unbelievable autopsy that was given that night. It was literally beyond belief. And to have 42 people in the gallery. And by the way, that's a low estimate because not everybody signed on to the list it was passed around. And to have that many people from the military, you know, in that all-time mutant.

Speaker 5And to have We didn't dissect the Bach one because we were told not to. Okay, they have something. Now that's your to Ben from page news in every newspaper in America. Okay, but it wasn't. All right. So anyway, those are the kind of things that Doug Warren was investigating him and Jeremy on when he was with the ARP.

Speaker 3Yeah, and Doug Doug did really strong work on that for sure. Well, hey, thanks. Thanks to you guys for, you know, the work that you've done on the JFK Records Act and pushing the ball forward to get disclosure of all these documents and to get an accounting of them and hey, just haven't specifically mentioned this yet. many years yeah me so it's got it's got a it's a vast resource I mean whatever I come across anything I go what is the opinion of Kennedy's in King on this matter and it's a good and I like to cross reference Kennedy's in King then I like to go look at Boogliosy and see uh they went with the the polarity looks like there. Let's quickly move on to I just wanted to get your opinions on a couple of LBJ topics because we haven't talked about it before. Now, Jim, I remember the first time I met you, the first question I asked, this is within 10 minutes of meeting you, something about Madeline Brown and you were like, your response I believe was quote,

Speaker 3Like, why are you here? What are you doing? So, so, but anyway, you asked me a lot of questions if you remember. I was there.

Speaker 5Good. I just tapped you there.

Speaker 3Yeah, that was pretty funny.

Speaker 5Anyway, I thought I'm going to give you a bill for that.

Speaker 3No. Yeah, if you get things you don't bill like I do. Anyway,

Speaker 5Well, last was his con man who accumulated a small fortune that was gained through selling phony cotton allotments and phony silos of ammonia, okay, fertilizer, all right. Now, one of the people he screwed over wrote a letter in the FBI and the Justice Department. All right, about what this con job that Billy was performing on his said to be clients, right? And this eventually built it into Bobby Kennedy, but not before it made it into a small newspaper down there was called a cake no time. That's what really gave it some vibrancy and got it into the media, right? And so now, LBJ and Hoover tried to get the reporter taken off the story, all right? It didn't work, the thing. something like inner moda of FBI, department of justice, accountants, etc. down the Texas, and they found out that all this stuff was correct, that he had defrauded these people. And so he went to trial. I think Believer was in 1965, and he was convicted.

Speaker 5Then he was brought out on parole, but to show you the kind of guy Billy Saul was, he's then was charged again a few years later and he was convicted again, all right, I didn't believe it was in 1979 on similar charges, a guy with a record like that, you know, so then then He got involved in the reopening of the Henry Marshall case, okay, who was investigating some of these fraudulent actions, all right, and he ended up being shot. And you can believe it, even though the shot I believe six times, all right, the sheriff how you can shoot yourself six times and you know, and you've missed five times, you know, that behind me. All right. So he injected himself into this reopening of this case. And this is where we'll actually, I shouldn't say that because there was a, there was an anesthetic and anesthetic for us. But this is where Billy's tall now says that Lyndon Johnson and by the way, before I say these numbers, I have to add this.

Speaker 5The numbers kept on escalating with a number of murders that he accused Lyndon Johnson of being in him. I believe first it was seven or eight, okay? Including Johnson Jones's sister, okay? He killed his sister supposedly, okay? It's up. So I think it was 17th, okay? So Johnson was his own murderer incorporated, all right, according to Billy Saul, right? Now, Billy Saul and his lawyer Doug Cattie tried to get a deal with the Justice Department in the 80s, I believe he was Stephen Trot, okay, he was the guy who sent down They demanded a son and a moon. Okay, in return for his testimony. And Trot said, look, we want to see the evidence and we want you to do a polygraph, all right? And guess what, Billy Saul walked out. Okay, when those demands were subjected to. Now, let me just deal with it. By the way, the antecedent I was talking about is this book, a text and looks implemented, all right.

Speaker 5That is where it really started to get into the Kennedy critical community because this was a piece of age of that. What everybody forgets about that book, that book was commissioned by the John And that's how it got in, you know, so the guy with a agenda like that, come on. Let's just say, first of all, Joseph Johnson was not murdered. She died of cerebral hemorrhage. Second of all, the guy that they called the professional assistant, Mack Wallace. Well, he has antibodies for both the day Kennedy and the day Marshall was shot, you know, so when you get down to the nitty gritty, oh, ball and by the way, Johnson was behind the kids or murder. Okay, that's another one, that was one that Matt Wallace actually did because he ponded revenge for what this guy had done to his wife. Do there's some of the things now also, Jay Harrison, who's in Texas Bay's researchers, And I believe in the late 90s are hardly part of the new millennium.

Speaker 5He came up with this so-called match between one of the prints on the six four as a book to part of the story. I'm one of the bookboxes. And Mac Wallace, okay, because Mac Wallace is as always been the go-to guy. the Johnson did it to you. Okay. All right. And he took this to two finger print, well, he called experts. All right. And they both said, yes, it's a match. So this meant Mac Wallace was on the sixth floor of the Texas football. Well, the second guy, I got him hot monster. Okay, team backed out a couple of days later. But the original guy, Nathan Darby, stuck by his And this this idiot Nigel Turner, which was on one of the worst series of specials I've ever seen on the JFK case, put this stuff on one of his specials, I think it was called the guilty man, right, right now, here's the problem with that. It's not true, okay, because Joan mallon got in touch. with a guy named Garrett, who was actually, you know, but this guy was, he actually did the testing for fingerprint analysis.

Speaker 5And you had to pass this task to become a certified fingerprint analyst. Well, how do you get much better than the guy supervised the test? And so Garrett said, wait a minute, these guys, were not dealing with even good copies, let alone the originals, and I would have never taken the assignment if I had to work with this stuff. And so Malon and Garrett got a first generation copy, and another one, but it wasn't from the one Nathan Darby, because they didn't think that was smudged. And so they got a better one, right? And unlike Darby, they did one with much higher technology, much better technology that you have today, all right? And Garrett said, first of all, the matches they call matches are not matches. You know, why they were not, all right. And then he said, no, this is not a, this is not a match at all. Okay, for this so-called print on this one, all right. Okay, but see, it doesn't matter because these Johnson's Ellis, you know, it doesn't matter to them.

Speaker 5Okay, you can discredit, matter and brown, you can discredit Billy Saul S. you chop off one head and you're coming to another one. So now we have, what is this now? This is 62 years after we now have this new tape. Okay. That is supposed to be newly discovered. And again, what is it? It's Matt Wallace, the B.O.N.N. though, all right? The John's should trade of the Johnson people, all right? And even though he was in California, all right, this tape now says a clip Carter and Billy Saw West, why did Carter, whatever, talk about this with Billy Saw West? You know, that's another question you know about that.

Speaker 3And I dove into all of the alice that you're talking about. But on the tape in particular, it sounded to, I mean, I guess my question is, and this is for Jim and for, you know, Andrew and Mark too, there's a question of, is the tape authentic? Like, was it really recorded in 1971? And then there's a separate question of, is that really cliff harder on the tape? And then there's another question of, if it is, are they just acting? So that's, what are your thoughts on those questions? Like, is it, do you think it's recently, by the upper voice analysis, did you? No, and there should be a voice analysis. Yeah, right? Because there's gotta be a team to play a card. There are two recordings of Carter talking to Johnson that I could find, but basically he's just going, yes sir, yes sir, and then Johnson's going, and then I'm going to live with him and he's like, yes sir, you know, it's like he's he's really quiet and so it's okay, I mean what we're islanded on all that is, yeah, I'm.

Speaker 3same as you on the figure print. Crudell, his view is we need another independent analysis just to be sure, and why not? I mean, good, you know, I think if that would make it clear to some folks, but my biggest, my biggest thing on the whole Mac Wallace side from the allies that you pointed out, is okay, what does Billy Soless just say? What is the Mac wall is story? Well, the story is that Mac wall is was shooting from, well, it's fingerprinted supposedly in the school back to cloud story. Where was he shooting from? The grassy null. Oh, okay. He was, this is what Billy Soless just says. He says he was shooting from the grassy null and then Billy Soless just, he says it's on the tape. Good, no, no, no, no. In his book, in his book, and it, Yeah, and his book and I believe that war was on the crafts, you know, yes, yeah, he says ball this was on the grass, you know, and then Right, so he also says that Mac Wallace recruited Jack Ruby, who then recruited Lee Harvey Kosovo.

Speaker 3But here's the thing, friends. We know from all the CIA documents about Oswald, all these things that are happening that Mac Wallace most certainly cannot have set up. So that's it. But I will say, I will give this to the LBJ folks. he had so many legitimate connections with the power elite across the board, you know, he was on the armed services committee and dealt with intelligence when he was in the Senate and Congress. And he just had their relationships in a jager Hoover or Irving David sends a pretty underrated relationship that he had. So my point is, could he have had some foreknowledge perhaps? Was he the guy, if so, we don't have a document of it, right? Was he the guy who started the whole thing? It's certainly not through Mac Wallace. I mean, you can make an argument more successfully through like Howard Burris or something like that, but I just think Mac Wallace is a dead end.

Speaker 5Look, Billy saw is probably the last person you'd ever want as a lawyer on this stand in a court of You know, because it would be an excruciating cross-examination did you lie about this ammonia thing. All right. Did you lie about these continents? All right. Why did you expect Lyndon Johnson be able to knowing the way Bobby Kennedy felt about Lyndon Johnson, why would you ever think that Lyndon Johnson could enter a scene with the attorney general to save you from all this fraud? I mean, come on, about six hours of questions like that, you know, Mark or Andrew, you want to chime in on LBJ?

Speaker 4I mean, you know, Matt, one show you did that I enjoyed. I'm personally fascinated by, you know, his immediate actions after Dallas. Well, starting, no, I should say, in Dallas, you know, I look at you know kind of what he did you know we know that Kennedy's body was forcefully removed for military controlled autopsy and we know and you did a really good show on the phone call with Hoover about Mexico City and things like that. That's right I mean that doesn't really tie to for knowledge per se or a platter but that's that's the part that drives me because you know how they went so quickly into covering up everything on Oswald and Mexico City and then of course pointing the war in commission so quickly. So that's that's where I that doesn't really you know add any flavor to that discussion you were having there but I want to congratulate you for doing that one particular show that I did listen to the entire thing on the there's a missing segment right of the the LBJ that's that's pretty big deal.

Speaker 3Yeah, Rex Bradford found that the 14 minute intentionally erased section and then I did some original research that was very important to the community I've been doing my entire life of just the important research of reading the transcript that did exist and I was able to use a timer and that was about five minutes and 30 seconds that's my contribution to the original research just kidding I'm joking was very easy to do. But okay, so the point is there's almost certainly more than just what we have from the transcript to there from that conversation and it does establish that there was a cover up by LBJ. I think's I think for sure Andrew we're using the notes

Speaker 2Yeah, you know, I just love the fact that there's so much subject matter that we can all nerd out on our on our niches. And I really enjoy watching watching you and Jim go at the the Mac wall of stuff like Mark and I go at the JFK record. It's act.

Speaker 3Well, look, anybody that really thinks McWales is the guy, I don't have no beef with you. I'm just saying I've laid out why I think what I think if you disagree, you can tweet at me or something. Tell me why. All right, next topic here, a couple of things raised by Robert Groden. that I want to just bring up and just kind of run by you guys. Maybe I'll bring up the least controversial one first. He said that Geraldine Reed told him that she was giving us well change at the moment the shots were fired. Jim, did you ever heard that before? Are you asking me? Yeah.

Speaker 5Well, that's the reason he was on your show. Oh, okay. I don't see. I didn't I didn't read what you wrote. The Kennedy's in King thought in contact with his wife, you know, and he said, board to the effect, you know, Jim De Nugini, I was in Beletus. Yeah, I mean, and and and he went ahead and and what we've got a little back and forth. Okay, and and and the anyone ahead and need one over this man's room. Okay. Um, I don't believe. Okay.

Speaker 3Let me talk about Jillian Reed or you're talking about McCone rally right now or Jill are the Jillian Reed part.

Speaker 5No, I want to talk about all those ones location.

Speaker 3Okay. Good. Good. Please.

Speaker 5Okay. In my opinion, people like Greg Parker have that odd wall was outside that he was on the foyer that he's permanent. Okay. That's why I believe Oswald was at the time of the assassination. Okay. So he couldn't have been where this woman, okay, Geraldine ring. Is that her name, Geraldine?

Speaker 3Yeah, Geraldine read.

Speaker 5All right. Where Okay, and also there's a problem that Greg brought up, okay, on his noun deceased, we open Kennedy case, that there's a possibility that I'm kind of at a loss to see why you brought this up with me because now I'm going to have to get in another dot work with Bob Rose. But he thought you should come back and you're sure okay, and say Jim dude, you're gonna be in front of that.

Speaker 3Okay, but look, here's the thing. You guys are allowed to disagree about information. I let friends with you. I have a great relationship with Bob Broden. It's all good. We don't have to, that's the whole point. Dialogue conversation. It's a beautiful thing. No problems. So yeah, some Mark, you didn't see what I originally wrote about this.

Speaker 5Just go ahead and Google, Jim D. U. Genial on absolute proof. Okay, because that's one of what I originally wrote about this. All right, it's in that review of that particular, okay.

Speaker 3Okay, yeah, and his position, he thinks that the person who is prayer man is just some person with a camera who we haven't found yet.

Speaker 5I believe that that is on smoke, okay, and if you take a look, what's that guy's name wrote the book?

Speaker 3Yeah, but I'd like to. I'm going to. It's a point.

Speaker 5I'm on. This is very convincing. You know, as far as that goes. Now, am I saying that it's a black pipe sense? No. I'm not saying this is a red pipe sense. But I'm saying that I think he proved it by performance in the evidence. Okay. And that in that course.

Speaker 3Um, I want to move quickly the next thing, which is the more controversial item, I don't believe it or not, uh, the McCone rally memo, all right. So, so here, here's where I'm on this. I understand that, uh, you know, the consensus in the critical communities, probably, you know, still that it's, it's not authentic, but I've now had Bob Tannenbaum tell me that Robert Groden told me not only did Bob Tan and Bob show it to him, and this is authentic, but he took it. So, you know, it's like the guy who's famous for taking the Zapruder film, took the McCone rally memo and admitted to it. So to me, I believe the, you know, the chain of custody of him taking it from the HSEA. It's just even, even Robert said, It was in a folder and it's not numbered and, you know, so, so how did it get there? It wasn't authentic, um, especially with tan and bombs supported that. So what? Go ahead, Jim. I'm not just about not saying it's authentic.

Speaker 3I'm just saying, I believe what he's saying that he took it from there. We don't know who put it there. Go ahead. Yeah.

Speaker 5If it was there, it was put there as a network pod. Okay. The idea and by the end of the way. I think you should describe it a little. Okay. It's a memo between the director to CIA the time, John McComb, and the director to take a service at that time, Jim Rally. All right. And in the memo, there's no other way to say this. McComb spills his guts, about all the things that CIA had done. You guys poor little guy, odds won't have to get trained them. How are they giving them instructions? Okay, how even where it took place? Okay, all right. And it's almost like a true confession. It's for that very reason, it's unbelievable right then and error. That McCone or the guy in the CIA would actually do this and by the way, just remember that the two guys running the CIA heritage with the war and commission at that time were dick homes in Jim Angleson. Now anybody in their right mind believes that they would let McCone write a document like that.

Speaker 5All right, you know, so maybe it was there. But if it was there, I think it was a liberal right here, okay.

Speaker 3You can't get more smoking gun than that. All right. I want to touch real quick on the mafia, just because I'm about to go in to the mafia. And I'm about to read Jim's favorite book, which is actually, there's so many books that you don't like. It's kind of funny. But no. But, but at any rate, I'm reading a lot of different books on it and the HTHSCA is done some incredible work on the Mafia angle at things, but going into it, my feeling is Jack Ruby, there's something going on there with Jack Ruby for sure, and then I'm looking forward to diving into the Robert Mayhew stuff and all of that and just sorting out the granular details All of that. Gem, your general thoughts on the mob. Thanks to look for her.

Speaker 5Look, here's actually a movie coming out about Giancone. All right. And it's going to say that him and Ricelli killed JFK, all right. Okay, I hope it actually doesn't get exhibited in theaters, all right, because it's, it's, it's really, look. The FBI have walled to walls for bail on Sanctuary every place the guy went. There were four different places that they had wired, okay, for sound following this guy because Bobby Kennedy, really wanted an alien time, all right? Now, on top of that, on top of that, they had 24, 7 physical surveillance on genie time. What do I mean by that? When he would go to a restaurant, they would take the table next to him. When he would go to a golf course, they would be in the couple behind him. When he would go to the bathroom at that restaurant, they would take the urine on next to him. Okay? All right. Then they would park their cars in front of his house at night.

Speaker 5It's to make sure that he didn't sneak away anywhere. All right. Now, the guy who actually would in charge of this wrote a book about it later. All right, the FBI agent. And he said, look, I listen to everything about there is a one single word about Giancana and the candy assassination of any of those tapes, all right, was in either Las Vegas or Los Angeles on the day of the assassination. So so many people who have tried to put these guys, you know, look, the best you can I agree with. Jack would be idolized in the pool. All right, he looked up to him like a big brother that he never had. It was been very easy for the CIA to get in contact with Trump of content because they had worked with him on the plops to kill Castro. And they would have said, we need somebody to polish off We're supposed to be dead by now, but he's still alive. Okay, and Trapa, Dante, probably would have called the colon.

Speaker 5And said he took the phone call from me, all right? And that, not only do I think that probably happened, I think that probably did happen. Okay, I think that's the closest thing we can get to a circumstantial case about the mafia in the JFK case. really to me fold any water. Okay.

Speaker 3All right, Mark, Mark Andrew, any thoughts on the mafia before we take off here?

Speaker 4No, I mean, I, I know, I've heard Jim talk a lot about Macquilly. I think that's very plausible. I think it shows that some skin in the game, if you will, on the mafia's end, and what happened in Dallas, but, you know, to eliminate Oswald, and, you know, that that much we can say pretty clearly.

Speaker 3sure. Um, all right. Hey, one, one thing really fast. Uh, November conferences. So I didn't want to make a quick announcement there. I'm going to be down in Dallas for the JFK Lancer Conference. I'll be doing a panel there with Jeff Crudell from JFK the Enduring Secret and Joe Burrulli from the Lone Gunman podcast, uh, just sort of a podcasting panel and, uh, Andrew, you're going to be there

Speaker 2Yeah, yeah, I think both Mark and I are going to be there. Yeah, I'm going to do a presentation. Obviously on the final determinations and the JFK Records Act.

Speaker 4No, I'm going to Lancers well and not speaking on anything at the moment, but I think it'll be a very interesting time of year with the task force wrapping up good to collaborate with everyone on how that's looking and hopefully some good ideas come of it so that's what I'm interested in helping with.

Speaker 3All right. No, not this time. I've been a few times.

Speaker 5I'm, you know, I've been to so many of these that, uh, I think my conference four days or no, don't say that. I just remember the last one I was at. Pablo cornered us in his room. And he said, I want to do a ball up.

Speaker 4Yeah, that's what happened. That's what happens.

Speaker 5All right, okay, okay, well, I've got to take a couple of subjects, all right, and, and now, and that's how I got snuckered into doing this, okay, which is the last, and thought of the person last, well, no, it's actually the second-hand problem that I ever did after the assassination. So my days of a romance

Speaker 4We want to New Orleans, Jim will come to that. All right.

Speaker 3Well, well, hey, thanks again, guys, for joining and definitely have you back again sometime to talk through the next things as I continue this journey of if not as world than who we got the mafia then we got then it gets fun then we get into Cuba like Fidel Castro then we get into the Soviet Union and then we get back to the exciles and then we're going to finally get over the CIA and to the generals so hey, hey. All right. It is real. I'm going to do an Israel episode two just just because people talk about it. So we're going to do it. We're going to cover it. All right. Anything else?

Speaker 2No, I mean follow in your show map. By the way, your show's being great. I watch or listen to each of your episodes just such an amazing collection of topics and and great analysis and

Speaker 4Yeah, it's fun to see, you know, some of your early ones and the production, you know, how much better and better it's getting. It's really well done.

Speaker 3Well, my goal is just to interview everyone that Jim disagrees with. All right. Well, hey, thanks guys. Thanks, Matt.

Speaker 4So much.

Speaker 3Bye.