Part 19 (Ep 86-89) Israel with Jefferson Morley

Speaker 2We just wrapped up a four-part series on whether Israel had a role in the JFK assassination. My ultimate finding on that question was that Israel did have plenty of motive for wanting Kennedy out of office. They also had the ability to pull off covert political assassinations through the Mossad. However, I wasn't able to find credible evidence to support the theory that Israel specifically David Ben Gurion ordered the hit on JFK. Of course, the word credible is doing a lot of work there. One key aspect of the Israel and JFK assassination question is the role of James Angleton. We spent an episode covering Anglton's relationship with the Israelis and how he turned a blind eye to Israel's nuclear proliferation against the policy of President Kennedy. In this recap and rebuttals episode, we'll be further discussing the main claims against Israel and looking at the role of James Anglton with the assistance of former Washington post reporter and Anglton biographer, Jefferson Morley.

Speaker 2Morley wrote a book called The Ghost about Angleton that is necessary reading for anybody who wants a complete picture of the mysterious spy. Of course, Jefferson Morley is also a leading JFK assassination expert who spoke before Congress last year about the case and continually breaks new stories about the documents that are being released. at his website, JFKFacts.org. So stick around for an in-depth talk on Israel, Angleton, and the JFK assassination coming up next on solving JFK.

Speaker 0In Dallas, Texas, three shots were fired at President Kennedy's motorcade in downtown Dallas. The first reports say that President Kennedy has been seriously wounded by this shooting. The final, apparently official, this is the Kennedy die and come to the helm. This morning resumed by the city, the man lay a formally charge to the assassination question. I'm just a part of the magazine. I'm just a part of the magazine. I'm just a part of the magazine. It's also a fact in a home. I was here my perfect spurs. I'm just an answer.

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Speaker 1great to be here mad i'm looking forward to this conversation it's something that's been on my mind obviously there's a lot of conversation about this so. I've been thinking hard about it and this is a good chance to explain kind of what I know, what I think, what I don't know, what I don't know.

Speaker 2Yeah. You know, I've got to say I was looking forward to covering Israel and I was looking forward to being done with covering Israel because it's really hard to not get pulled in to the sort of modern conversation. That's kind of the underlying thing that's, that's driving things in many cases. So, I try to keep it you know politically neutral everybody's welcome here to talk about the JFK assassination but it that's that's a challenge whenever you cover Israel is sort of not getting sucked into the modern day politics of it all but I think we can do it. I think we can do it. Yeah.

Speaker 1No, and that's a very good point. I mean, and it's not just true with Israel, is people use the JFK story because it is so pivotal and important to justify whatever their current political views are. So people will tell you that Kennedy was killed because of his views on the federal reserve. UFOs is real. And so, you know, it's very tempting, you know, because it was important, it does have current ramifications. But it's also, you know, nothing that happens today can affect what happened on November 22nd. So we have to go back to that time and not think about what followed in order to understand that moment. So we need to both understand the importance of the Kennedy assassination today, but we also need to detach ourselves from that and remind ourselves what happened in 1963. So, you know, what was the role of Israel? I mean, you know, I never saw a whole lot of evidence in that regard.

Speaker 1But, you know, I wrote a book about Angleton and came to understand his influence was immense. And he was very close to the Israelis. So, you know, he and let's not forget, and this is a very important part of the story. Angleton controls the Oswald file at CIA headquarters and, you know, we can get into all sorts of talk about, you know, who killed Kennedy and what's in the latest JFK files, but that's not overlooked that bedrock fact. Angleton controlled the Oswald file from November 1959 to November 1963, and we have to assume that he read everything that went into it. You know, Angleton was the guy who put Oswald on the male surveillance list right after he defected to the Soviet Union. Oswald was one of eight top secret defector cases that were under review by the State Department in the CIA in 1960. So if Angleton put Oswald's name on the watch list and he's one of eight cases, we can be sure that Angleton read every piece of paper that came in concerning

Speaker 1and continuing for the next four years. All told, we can be reasonably sure that Angleton saw 42 different documents on Oswald. His staff certainly received them. and his aide Betty Eggeter was the file supervisor in the counterintelligence special investigations group. She controlled the Oswald file, and she testified under oath to the HSEA and described how that file was controlled, how carefully it was controlled. So Anglton's in on the JFK story from the beginning because he's tracking Oswald from the beginning. He's also very close to the Israelis, so that makes him a ripe subject. Now, let's get into, you know, the arguments and the rebuttals, and let's talk some specifics.

Speaker 2Okay, let's do it. That's a good, a good intro. And I'll say, I've had some recap and rebuttal episodes that have been lied on rebuttals, but thanks Internet for hitting rebuttals on the, on the, It's, and I'll just also say on the rebuttal side of things, I don't view it when someone has a rebuttal as like a debate or a front or anything like the whole premise of everything I'm doing is I don't know everything it's impossible.

Speaker 1You're afraid to say that LBJ was involved. You're afraid to say that Masad was involved. And I just want to say to people who say that, I've been at this for 30 years. I've studied those issues very carefully, okay? If they don't appear in my reporting or in my books, that's not because I haven't thought about them. It's that I don't think those are the rapist areas for investigation or for discovery. That doesn't mean that I don't think LBJ might have had a role. That's a legitimate question. Dido for the Mossad and Israel. Dido for the Mafia. But my work reflects what I think is the most promising areas, which is the CIA. But are these other areas important? They are definitely important. I'm not afraid to go there. I just have a judgment about what the evidence is.

Speaker 2Right. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And for me, I'm not afraid to go there. I just didn't know or I looked at it and I went, it's not relevant. So anyway, what we'll talk about them is they come up. But let's first rebuttal pronunciations. This is a fun thing. But I'm pretty bad at this. It's almost as bad, I will say the Israel's almost as bad as when I was down in the bayou trying to drink, but slumber Jay and that kind of stuff. But all right, it's not it's not king-saud, it's king-saud, it's not the Hagenah, it's the Hagenah. Manachum began, it's Manakum. It's not Lehigh, it's Lehigh, Bank Lehigh. Halevi and it's not Frank Nagey. It's Farant's Nacked. OK, yes, OK. There we go. Thank you for the correction and I appreciate it. Again, I don't know everything. All right, so did it, Israel have motive. This was sort of the first episode that came out. And the big motive points we covered were as follows far the foreign agents registration act and whether or not it is real had to register.

Speaker 2I'm sorry whether I'm a figure with the name of the group was and that the prime assessor to APAC. Yeah. Yeah. And you know for me, That to me is sort of a political disagreement, you know what I mean? But is that enough to assassinate a president? I don't know, but I do run the board because it's always mentioned because there's evidence for that particular one. Do you have thoughts on that motive point?

Speaker 1I mean, it seems like, you know, it's a political difference. It's important. Is it a life and death issue for Israel? Not on not on par with the nuclear program. Right. So, yeah, I don't, as a motive for the assassination, that doesn't strike me as very strong.

Speaker 2Yeah, I agree. It's a weak motive, but it's a point that is often raised, so I included it. The second thing is the idea that Kennedy had like an anti-Israel bias or a pro-Arab bias. And I think this sort of the factual support for that idea is that he reduced the overall budget to Israel compared to his predecessors. You know, I think they thought that too much Deference was being given to the Arabs by Kennedy.

Speaker 1Yeah, and, and insightly larger perspective, Kennedy had from the beginning of his career, um, a, you know, what, what if you could say an anti-colonial, bias or a disposition in favor of those nations that were becoming independent after World War II and defended them, defended Vietnam, defended NASA, the non-aligned movement. You know, and at the time, this non-aligned movement, countries who were trying to steer between the United States and the Soviet Union, this was really a nathma to the U.S. national security establishment. They were with the doctrine that George... W Bush, an unseated later, you know, either you're with us or you're against us. You can't have this middle ground. Kennedy was more sympathetic to the non-aligned movement, and I think in particular what would have registered in Israel was that he was in support of Algerian independence. At a time when that was controversial, it was Algeria was the Vietnam for France, you know, a deeply divisive issue that shook the country to its core in the late 1950s and 1960s.

Speaker 1And Charles De Gaulle was supremely irritated with Senator Kennedy when he weighed in on the issue. And Kennedy thought this was a whipper snap or, you know, young enough to be his son, spouting off on something he didn't know anything about. in favor of these Arabs getting their independence, that didn't go unnoticed in Israel, that that was Kennedy's stance. So this feeling that on specific policy issues, the Kennedy administration was quite adamant, and then in the larger environment of sort of geopolitics, Kennedy was suspected rightly of having sympathies with the non-aligned movement and his willingness to would have been, you know, would have been part of that.

Speaker 2Yeah. And then the the third thing was UN resolution 194, which called for the writer return to of refugees to their their properties or compensation if they did not return. And this was the one where I think on this one, we're now ratcheting it up to a different tier than the first two we talked about, but still far short of nuclear. uh... because there's a letter from uh... bingoion to the Israeli ambassador uh... where where he's he kind of you know plant plants a flag and it kind of says like hey this this is a line that we're not going to cross you know note no matter what we're we're not going to do it like this this way and they did his real rums dot on that one

Speaker 1Yeah, so, I mean, that's a more serious issue that would have been regarded as more existential by the Israeli security establishment compared to the other two. So yeah, the nuclear program and, you know, that openness to the Arab case in the Middle East, you know, reflected in resolution 194.

Speaker 2Right. Well, let's get to the main event when it comes to motive, which is the nuclear program and nuclear proliferation generally. And I think, you know, for me, I'm currently doing my research. I'm reading Robert Dalix biography, um, JFK. I know everyone listens to the show will be like, what do you, what are you, you know, he's not going to tell the truth, but I think, you know, for things like, uh, You know, mainstream histories that are documented, it's good to have have the guy who knows some stuff. But I don't even read it.

Speaker 1I mean, and that book. You know, Mark, his book marks a definite turn in the debate about JFK's presidency. Where Gallic Ways in very carefully and says, Kennedy was in a war with his military, and that's not, I wouldn't say that's the consensus view of liberal historians. I know liberal historians who say Kennedy was totally on board with, you know, the CIA and overthrowing Castro. So, you know, what he said in that book, and I think he documents, and it's very true, and the idea that you throw out the book because you disagree with some of his conclusions, I mean, that's juvenile, okay? There's some interesting

Speaker 2Sure. No, it's I've enjoyed it, but the reason I brought it up is because I'm going I'm preparing for the series on the Soviet Union, which is the next coming down the pike and like the southern JFK is like it's a guitar hero for the JFK. There's always the top it coming down the thing out. But anyway, the the context of this nuclear conversation, you know, the Kennedy's not just saying no is real. You can't have a new stop at it. I don't want you to have it. He's going, hey,

Speaker 1I'm trying to put the cat back in the bag for everybody, the confrontation with first with Ben Gurion and then with Eschgol, but is part and parcel of Kennedy's turn after the Cuban missile crisis, where having gone to the brink of nuclear war, he realizes, you know, It's quite possible that if Kennedy wasn't president and let's say Nixon was or Johnson was or Eisenhower was, we probably would have had a nuclear war in 1962, and JFK knew that better than anyone, so he's a conventional, old-war politician in a lot of ways up until the Cuban Missile Crisis. After that, he becomes a dove. I mean, there's no mistaken yet. Anybody who says Kennedy was a hawk on Cuba or was a hawk on the Cold War, nobody, but nobody in the United States who was a hawk in 1963 said that JFK was a hawk. right zero, not on Cuba, not on the Soviet Union. He was taking a definite turn to the left, saying we got a dial this cold, worth thing back.

Speaker 1We need to reduce the risk of nuclear war. I want to treat it with the Soviet Union to pay it the way. And I want to strengthen the non-proliferation treaty to make sure that nobody else gets the weapons. And so the confrontation with Israel is just part of a much bigger move on his part to achieve this limited test of entry. And when he gets it in September of 63, He says, this is the big accomplishment of my presidency so far. This is the thing I'm the most proud of. So he threw a lot into it. And, you know, it was because of the prestige that he gained in the Cuban Missile Crisis where he stood firm and got all of his demands, but didn't go to war. And he was a peacemaker and Kennedy shoots up in the polls. You know, 10, 15 points after the missile crisis is settled, the 62 midterms looking very bad for the Democrats going into the home stretch. The missile crisis is settled a week later, there's a vote, and it's basically a wash.

Speaker 1You know, and the Democrats buck the trend of suffering big losses in the first midterm, despite Kennedy having some real political liabilities in the first couple months of his presidency. So, so Kennedy's on a new path in 1963 to dial back the coal war to wind down the conflict with Cuba. He's again, you know, he rejects the possibility of invading Cuba in the Bay of Pigs in the April 1961. He again rejects it in October 1962 during the missile crisis. And after that, he's not going to sanction an invasion of Cuba. He had promised that to cruise Jeff. So he wants to dial back and create a different kind of atmosphere for the Cold War. So it's conflict with Israel as part and parcel of that. And I think the Israelis understood that Kennedy was very serious. Ben Gurian quits right in the middle of this. Why would the founding founder of Israel quit in the summer of 1963? Well, Ben Gurian didn't the first principle of Israeli politics is don't say no to the United States.

Speaker 1So Ben Gurion doesn't want, if Ben Gurion's going to stay as prime minister, he's going to have to say no. And so what he does, he says, I'm not going to say no, because I'm not going to have the job. And he hands off. Now this is a big crisis in the Israeli government because this is the guy who kind of held the coalition together from right and left. He had the stature. He was, you know, the founding father in a lot of ways without him there, you know, this was a very fractious bunch and you know how were they going to figure out what their unified policy was. That's what they were trying to do in the summer of 1963 and these letters back and forth. But you know, so yeah, there's a profound difference there and these relates were upset about it. But you know, the Quibono argument, who benefited? It only takes you so far because the president of the United States has a lot of enemies. Right.

Speaker 1So in order to establish a connection between the state of Israel, and I want to make a distinction here that I think is relevant, the state of Israel and the causes of the Kennedy assassination, you have to go beyond the Quibono argument. You have to have some evidence connecting people to the crime scene. or Ruby, or, you know, some other person connected with that, so, you know, we can talk about, you know, what is the evidence there? The other thing that I wanted to make clear is, you know, we can talk about, you know, the state of Israel, actors from the state of Israel, but you can also have actors from Israel who have the ability to operate independently. And certainly somebody like my or landscape fits into that. So, that might be two things that we look at. Is there Israeli involvement? Is Israeli state involvement, Mossad? And is there my or landscape involvement, which you might say is more of the gangster element, right?

Speaker 1Lansky's the accountant for the North American mob and but comes a kind of boss himself because he's so accomplished so you know um so does Lansky ever roll do the Israelis have a roll um fair question like one of rewind a little bit to tell people a little bit what's in the ghost and kind of the background Yeah, yeah, the weak Kennedy was inaugurated, a physicist from the Uris of Michigan, came back and had visited Demona. the Israeli nuclear facility. He was a nuclear scientist. He was not a CIA agent, but he was a scientist who consulted with CIA experts. And he came back and he sent the CIA a note. And he said, look, I've been inside Demona and I don't believe that's just a research facility. What they have there looks more like a weapons development facility. That's the first week of Kennedy's presidency. that intelligence goes to the CIA. Angleton, as the head of the Israeli desk, is in charge of if a report comes in disseminating it to the rest of the government.

Speaker 1You know, we don't know, we have no records of Angleton's, you know, what he was doing is the chief of the, of the Israel desk. We do know what the chief of the Mexico desk was doing and those positions generated a lot of paper. You get a lot of incoming cables, you send a lot back out. So, you know, it's a black box, but to me, it looked like, There were warnings sent clearly to the CIA scientific directorate, which Anglton is really desk officer would have seen, talking about the possibility that Demona was in fact a weapon's development facility. That was not a new view in 1963, and when Kennedy was pressing, it was not uninformed, okay? And it wasn't anti-Semitism. It was a report from a highly credible So that's the, you know, that's the background. Now, what is Angleton doing in the summer of 1963? Well, he went to Israel pretty much every summer. starting in the early 1950s. I just did say every summer, once a year.

Speaker 1And when he went there, he was on close terms with a lot of these really security chiefs. Okay? Not just he went to see Ben Gurion, Ephraim Hailevi, Hailevi, told me when I went to interview him in Tel Aviv. But Anglton went down to see Ben Gurion and he said that he didn't know what they talked about. But he was saying that as a measure of Anglton's influence, that he could go have state-to-state relations. In a country, according to diplomatic protocol, state-to-state relations are supposed to be handled if not by the president of the United States, then by the local ambassador. Anglton was, in fact, more important than the U.S. ambassador to Israel, if he could go see Ben Gurian on his own, and we don't know what they talked about, but presumably they talked about this crisis in government. So, you know, that's what Anglton was doing in the summer of 1963. But, you know, you know, What's the connection to the assassination?

Speaker 1Outside of, you know, the Israeli stood to benefit and we can look back and say, Johnson had a very different policy than Kennedy and pursued a different policy. So, you know, so Kennedy's death, Johnson's ascension did make a policy difference. But what's the connection to the crime? I mean, and this is where I say, you know, I can tell you half dozen, a dozen CIA officers who knew all about Le Harbi Oswell before the assassination, okay? Anybody from Israeli intelligence know that? I mean, Angleton did. So that's a fair argument. Angleton, you know, some kind of agent sympathizer with the Israelis he knows about Oswell, but is that Israeli state connection? I don't think so.

Speaker 2But we're going to get to the exact, uh, exact claims that because, you know, I'm trying to represent what the arguments are on this, this is your, uh, Michael Collins Piper seems to be sort of the leading proponent. What I mean by leading is he has the longest book that's the most well-sighted. right let's well-sourced okay and so anyway we'll break down what has exact theory here when we get to it but but on on I just went go back quickly to uh to to Ben Gurian and Kennedy the letters back and forth one thing I thought was kind of funny is um uh The whole conversation is, hey, we don't need the nuclear power, we're not going nuclear for weapons, we need a saltwater desalination plant. That was the whole thing of why they needed it. And then Kennedy came back super reasonable, hey, we just need to have inspectors, yada yada two times a year, and then his response was, you're going to get us killed!

Speaker 2What are you doing? Well, hold on. I thought it was thought, is it because you're thirsty? You know what I mean? Like, it was just funny to see Ben Gurion's responses in the context. It's like, it's a pretty weird response if you're maintaining that it's not about saltwater desalination, you know?

Speaker 1Yeah. And when, you know, their intent was deception, right? Because they did build a phony facility inside Demona, to throw, you know, a little Potemkin village research reactor to throw off anybody and to seal off the weapons research areas. So, you know, they are intent was to deceive the United States. There's not, that was their solution to the problem. They weren't going to give up their program and they weren't going to surrender to inspections that would reveal the program. They were going to deceive the United States or at least try.

Speaker 2Yeah, let me ask you a few about Angleton and Numec specifically so quick back story and we went deep on this and I believe I was citing to you, you and the primary documents were my sources for this, but We, it's clear that at this point that nuclear fuel rods were taken from a polypensylvania and which was by the Israeli government and we know that because the signature on the the 97.7% enrichment only comes from the Portsmouth Ohio plant which uses which powers nuclear submarines. And I once dated a girl from Portsmouth, Ohio, and I think you knew how cancer.

Speaker 1There we go.

Speaker 2I hope you guys are happy.

Speaker 1Well, no, we know why. Yeah. And so how did, what was the connection between the highly enriched uranium of Portsmouth, and the Israeli nuclear reactor? Well, John Hadden. who was a station chief in Tel Aviv under Angleton, drove down to Demona and his son told me this story and they went out and they had a picnic in the desert and while they were having a picnic his dad was running around snipping the trees and he said you could see the dome of Demona in the distance. What he was doing was seeing if there was radio active fallout on the plant life around Demona. He sends that back to Washington, and the fingerprint is for not for any kind of enriched uranium. It's for that highly enriched uranium, which in the United States could only have come from ports in it. So, and Numek was a supplier of ports in it. So, and the other thing is, you know, nuclear material at that time was under control of the U.S. government.

Speaker 1So you could have a commercial reactor, but you couldn't the fissile material, you had to return to the government after you'd used it for a process. Material begins to go missing from Newmec in 646566. That's when they come is rarely nuclear scientists come disguised as nuclear scientists and they're actually working for the Israeli nuclear program. And they visit New Mac and 1968. I think that given that, you know, the material was going missing, Uh, before that, that's more like the end of the operation rather than the beginning. Certainly by September of 69, the Israelis had tested a weapon and felt confident and golden my ear told Nixon, we have a nuclear weapon. So the key developments happen between 64 and 69 as the nuclear material. is disappearing from the New Mac facility. Another thing that, you know, I found in my Anglton book that was very persuasive to me is the FBI eventually went around and started interviewing people at New Mac.

Speaker 1And they found a former employee who told about an incident, I think it was in 64 or 65, where, you know, these cylinders of missile material were being loaded. And the guy came and said, you know, like, what's going on, you know, and he was basically told to shut up for good. You know, but he saw a seraptitious handling of thisile material on a large scale. The fact that the Israeli agents led by the guy who led the raid on the kidnapping of Adolf Itman, you know, one of Israel's top covert operatives. I mean, the Israelis never had any explanation of why he was there. The only explanation of why he was there, which Adner Cohn told me, one of the top historians of the Israeli nuclear program, the only explanation for his presence is to steal nuclear material. So, So the case that Israel's nuclear material came from Apollo is very strong, and it's strengthened by a whole bunch of things, you know, the owner of the plant, and the chief scientists at the plant are diehard Zionists who have visited Israel, and John Haddon, who I mentioned before, the CIA station chief in Tel Aviv, under Anglton,

Speaker 1later compiled a list of 29 different measures, 25 different reasons why his boss Angleton had enabled the Israelis to steal this nuclear material. And John Hayden was not a whistleblower. He was not anti-CIA. He was not anti-Semitic. Skip all those stupid arguments. he presented the evidence to Congress, he was worried, he thought that, you know, somebody had betrayed the U.S. government and treaty commitments in this, and he didn't say angles and did it, he thought Congress should have the evidence and then Congress could decide. So he took a very responsible path, and his son showed me his list of twenty-nine. factors. I mean, it's very strong. You know, now the fact that Congress didn't follow up on it, you know, that's politics is usual, but the factual case that the CIA permitted the the diversion of Fissile material at Newman. That factual case is quite strong.

Speaker 2Wow. And do you think that's, so you said there were 29 points, those were points to the point

Speaker 1that Israel had diverted fissile material from the United States, and some of the 29 points you know, made reference to Anglton's actions or in actions. What John Hadden eventually said was you know, Anglton had no objection to the Israelis getting the bomb. So he looked the other way, And if he could have helped them, he would have. That was the conclusion of somebody who worked for him in the CIA, you know, in Tel Aviv. So a pretty high quality witness.

Speaker 2Reminds me of Jolly West's close friend when they asked him, is he the type of guy that would have followed government orders to go scramble Jack Ruby's brain. And the close friend of like 35 years goes, absolutely. That definitely is on the same thing, different contexts. Um, I want to hit a rebuttal real quick, uh, rebuttal number 2. They get eventually more and more substantive and we go along. All right. This one is Twitter, rebuttal, extrabuttal, guy named Tanki Reel and, uh, he says this. This is a classic anti-communist lie and then he quotes uh, something I said, which is Angleton's concern about Israel being loyal to the Soviet Union was a laid by Joseph Stalin's arrest and murder. of anyone promoting Jewish culture within the USSR in 1948. So, he was written a thread of detailing his counterpoint. And let me just say, you know, long story short, the claim is that I overstated Stalin's anti-Semitism.

Speaker 2his real concern was that, you know, the thing Stalin was really worried about was the enthusiastic response of Soviet Jews to the establishment of Israel, and Stalin was unsettled by what he saw as divided loyalty that was in competition with Soviet patriotism. This is what Tanki reels says. So, you know, I will say that my statement that, uh, Joseph Stalin murdered anyone who was promoting Jewish culture certainly was an overstatement. I meant it to be tongue-in-cheek and I realized it did. So, what I would reference things specifically is there was a purged throughout government and throughout different offices, this detailed and wicked media, but specifically 13 Jewish poets were arrested and later executed and the rest was in 1948. So, point taken, but the only reason I was making that point, was that Angleton wasn't worried about Israel being tight with the Soviet Union. And I'm sure there are other reasons, too, but by the time he took over, he wasn't.

Speaker 2But go, you can chime in on that, too, please.

Speaker 1Yeah. So let me just complicate the situation when Angleton first was dealing with the Israeli leaders. This is even before the creation of the Messiah. Angleton's experience with the Israeli The war ends and the Jewish agency is moving into Europe, trying to extract survivors of the Holocaust, bring them down to the coast to the Adriatic coast of Italy, and put them on ships to Palestine. take these traumatized people to escape from the scene of the crime and they can go back to not that there's no Jewish homeland yet but a Jewish community in Palestine and that's the Jewish agency. And so that is where Angleton becomes associated with these with the future leaders of Israel. And He protects them, and there's an important note that was declassified in Angleton's church committee testimony, where he basically says, when the Ergun blew up a police station, I think it was in Rome, he basically stashed them and saved them from prosecution because he felt it would be useful for future operations.

Speaker 1So he's already dealing with them. But Angleton is very suspicious Jews coming out of the Soviet Union because in America, Jews were a large percentage of the American Communist Party. Don't forget, Angleton, in his youth, grew up in fascist Italy, his father associated with the fascist elite of Mussolini. You know, fascism was successful, it was popular. And Angleton, you know, he mouths these anti-Semitic tropes. He's an anti-Semi. Um, you know, just culturally, and that attitude sticks around the way the Israelis described to me was, they worked on him and they said, look, you don't have to worry about us and the internal politics of the Soviet Union and Israel played a factor, okay? Don't forget, Soviet unions the first country to recognize the state of Israel. Why, but as like you said, Stalin's got internal concern about our Jews loyal to his regime, although lots of Communists in Stalin's regime are also Jews.

Speaker 1And then likewise in Israel is Israel going to The anti-Semitic purges in Moscow in 1948 really settled the issues for what for the state of Israel as it comes into being in 1948. And Halah Alevi told me, you know, it was decided at that point, we were going to put our chips on the United States, not on the Soviet Union. And he talks about a very difficult process where They purge the Jewish communists from the Israeli security forces. You know, and he said, these are good comrades who fought with us all the way. You know, it was very painful. So Israel sorting out its own communist anti-communist politics. But by 51, when Masad is created, the United States and Angleson sets up meetings with Alan Dois, where the Israeli U.S. intelligence cooperation begins to take root. And that's when Angleton becomes the chief of the Israeli desk and the special relationship begins to come into reality.

Speaker 1So, you know, how does that figuring in your thing? You know, yeah, I think you overstated when you say, you know, anybody who any Jewish person was, you know, slaughtered. But the anti-Semitic purges were designed You know, if your Jewish just shut up because this is, if you don't, this is what's going to happen to you and that was, you know, one way that Stalin consolidated his power was these anti-Semitic purges, which among the, you know, non-Jewish populations could be popular, you know, Jews were demonized. So Stalin, you know, played on that. But I think that, you know, Does it comes back to is Angleton, Angleton hates the Soviet Union? I don't know if Angleton opposed the test band treaty, probably. I don't see where he ever expressed of you on it, but he was not in favor of anything like that. So the question of Angleton's views on Israel and the Soviet Union would have been the same.

Speaker 1I think we'd have been congruent.

Speaker 2Yeah, let me ask you on Ancton, this is going back to his church community testimony on Bill Harvey and the Cuban business in the Israeli so specifically Angleton recruited and Israeli to work with Harvey in Cuba on the Cuban business being clandestine operations and this was something that's been declassified I believe this year was previously redacted and Angleton says that you know this was an Israeli who He spoke Russian and spoke other Balkan languages, and he basically said it was just to get coverage So that the Soviets and the Cubans wouldn't know what you know the Americans were gonna do before they did it He wraps up the conversation about this with the church committee, but they asked him Well was was your agent your Israeli agent ever involved in trying to kill Castro and the name of the goes I want it He knows I would have cut his throat. Oh my god. Sorry god

Speaker 1Yeah, a couple of things are relevant here. One is Anglton does help Harvey and Anglton is good friends and bureaucratic allies with Harvey and he's did assassination chief and they worked together on assassination operations. That's important to understand against Castro. But in this case, Angleton boasts that he provides this source and Israeli agent to work in uh, uh, in Havana and provide intelligence. It wasn't part of an assassination plot. There was an intelligence collection operation. Um, but Angleton prided himself and he says in the church committee testimony, this was absolutely secret. Nobody else in the CIA knew about it. Only him and only he and Dick Helms, the the deputy director in the whole agency knew about this relationship. So Angleton's running these very closely held relationships. I think now it's maybe a good time to bring in the role of Ruben Efron.

Speaker 2Yeah, great.

Speaker 1So, so the Israeli official who who Anglton talked about, I believe his name was A Eastern European or Russian emigray went to the Israel and then Anglton picked him up as an intelligence asset. Thanks to his friends. Isser Harrell was the head of the Mossad in the 50s. And Maya, I mean, was the head in the 60s. Anglton was very close to both of those men. in this time is develop sources of information who people who know about life in the Soviet Union. And Jews exiting the Soviet Union and moving to Israel. This is what the Israelis convinced him. This is a bond, you know, this is a bananza for you. At a time when, you know, we didn't know anything about life and so, you know, so the CIA is hungry for, you know, what's the price of bread, you know, what's the price of a car, you know, how many, what kind of military weapons, I mean, there was a tremendous hunger for information. an ideal source for him and what was declassified just this year is long passages where he describes a network that he developed independent of the CIA using people like this recommended by the Israelis coming out of the Soviet Union very knowledgeable about life in the Soviet Union.

Speaker 1I think the first time, the first time that I began to think more seriously about Israel in the assassination was in 2023, when the name Ruben Fron was declassified in Le Harvias Waltzfile. It was the very last thing in Oswald's file. I talked to you before about Oswald had this big file, the CIA 42 documents, close to 200 pages of material. Over the years, that file has been slowly declassified, but it wasn't totally declassified until April 2023 when the last little redaction came off and revealed the name of the man who had been reading Oswald's mail since 1959. his name was Rubin Ephraim. He was an emigrate from Lithuania, multi-lingual, moved to Cuba before World War II, went into the U.S. Air Force, became a translator thanks to he spoke about six languages. And after the war went to work for the CIA, in 1955, 1956, the mail surveillance program that he created with Jay Edgar Hoover.

Speaker 1And the mail surveillance program was, they would look at every piece of a mail that was sent to or came in from anywhere outside the United States. And they had a list of people. And if then list on the name appeared in a letter on the address or the return address, then they would take that letter, steam it open, take the letter, copy the letter, put a copy in the file, put the letter back in, reseal it, and send it on its way. So now they have a copy on file of Oswald's correspondence. So that's what Angleton was doing. And that's what he enlisted Rubin Ephraim for. Well, who was Rubin Ephraim? He was a guy who, you know, I think it's fair to say. His primary loyalty was two Israel. After he retired from the CIA, he moved back to Israel, espionage as, you know, key to the survival of the Jewish people. He was very learned in the, you know, ancient stories of Jewish survival and attributed, you know, Jewish survival to espionage.

Speaker 1So here was for the first time, I thought, somebody who had a real connection to Israel, who also had knowledge of Oswald before the assassination. Now, that's not a Mossad done at theory, but that's a piece of information that we didn't have before. And I think made me think more seriously was there where the Israelis watching Oswald seems improbable, but could they have known about Oswald through Ruben Ephraim? It said something new that spoke to a direct connection between Israeli interests and Oswald, that I had not seen before. So that's significant. I'll just leave it at that.

Speaker 2Yeah, I mean, I, you know, my conclusion at the end of this thing. And of course, this is just my conclusion. I'm not trying to convince anybody. I'm just kind of laying everything out so I can explain the logic. But I did say that I'm leaving it open for the, the possibility that, you know, could there have been four knowledge through Angleton and some way, you know, but maybe sure, but you can always speculate about just because people know one another what things happen between them. It's just, yeah. little bit speculator speculative.

Speaker 1Yeah, no, and we don't have any evidence about, you know, Ruben Fron and any relationship to the assassination. But it is interesting that what we learned in in April 2023 was not only that Fron had been reading Oswald's mail from 1959 to 1962. No, a CIA operations officer was reading Lee Harvey Oswald's mail for the first 18 months of JFK's presidency. We didn't know that until 60 years after the fact, 2023, okay? Imagine if that had been known in November or December 1963. Ed's would have ruled at the CIA. I mean, no question. Angleton probably would have lost his job. So this was decisive pivotal information. that was withheld. And it wasn't just withheld from the war in commission and it wasn't just withheld from the church committee and it wasn't just withheld from the House select committee on assassinations. It was known to the assassination records review board but it was not allowed to be made public until 25 years after the review board went out of existence.

Speaker 1So it's a highly sensitive fact. Yeah, no. So that tells you something that it was very important to people in the CIA and people in Israel that nobody know about this. Remember, too, if it hadn't been for Trump's order, the CIA had cut a deal with President Biden that this stuff would stay secret forever. And if Kamala Harris had won, it probably would have stayed secret forever. You know, this was something that they intended never ever to be made public. Now we know, so that's a, you know, that's an admission against interest. They had to concede something that they were intent on denying. which raises the question, why are you here so much, you know, why yeah, yeah, no, and an interesting thing about Rubin Fron, which we pointed out at JFK facts on substack, let me do a little pro plug there, if you're interested in this subject, JFK facts on substack is probably the way you want to go.

Speaker 1And you know, you can look at this story that we ran about Rubin Fron. Well, Rubin Fron, maybe still alive. Let's call him up. No, no, no, he died. He died on November 22nd, 1993. So in 2023, he had been dead for 30 years, okay? So the reason we're withholding it to protect sensitive sources and methods, you know, living agents? No, that's not the explanation. He'd been dead for 30 years. There's another explanation. Okay, and the explanation is, this is connected with all the Israel stuff that was so sensitive that it had to be censored from Angleton's church committees at testimony. I mean, that Ipso facto is true, right? There's no disputing that. Those things are connected. They were withheld from the public record. Long after the man died, the explanation is, there's something about Israel and Angleton that is so sensitive that we never, ever, ever wanna talk about it.

Speaker 2And we're not, we're not going to find out about this because the conversation went off the records so there's no transcript, right? Right. Yeah. Yeah. All right. All right, well, let's keep trucking along here. We're going to get out of your sweet spot and move on to some other thing, not that the entire thing. Anyway, let's go to the question of, did Myer Lansky have a bigger role than previously understood? And look, I just got done doing a series on the Mafia and I covered Myer Lansky, you know, gave him about a page and a half of time. But the challenge, with the mafia and a lot of this stuff we're talking about now, not all of it, but some of the conversation about Israel is just that we don't have hardly any documentation. And what we do have is anecdotes from people who remember maybe from a book or something like that. So it's, you know, and I understand the mere absence of documentation doesn't mean that it didn't happen.

Speaker 2I get that. It's not like there's going to be a memo about all the misdeeds that have happened. I understand. But anyway, I'm just saying this is tough. It's hard to know what to make of things. This is something I kind of struggle with. But okay, myor landscape. Here's the big picture what we talked about. He had to, so of course, like you mentioned, he's the sort of accountant for the mob, He oversees, not overseas, but he's sort of part of the Jewish mob. He works with the Italian La Cosa Nostra to help them with offshore banking and money laundering, in particular. And of course, came up with Lucky Luciano, but... As it relates to Israel, aside from being sort of a lifelong supporter of the cause, Lansky did his banking at a bank called BCI Bank, and he had two associates on the board, and one of them was Ed Levinson, who's the guy that helped finance Bobby Baker's carousel hotel in Ocean City, Maryland.

Speaker 2So that's always fun to come back. But anyway, the BCI was also It's founded by this guy, T-Boer Rosenbaum, who was an officer in the Mossad, and the BCI Bank was the main bank for Israeli military and defense forces, at 1.90% of their outgoing expenses. So you kind of pull all this together and I have a little infographic that shows the lines going to who's what relationship with whom.

Speaker 1But so far, this mere banking relationship, you know, I mean, I certainly think Lansky's actions would not be unknown or inconsistent or in contradiction to the interests of Israeli security forces. Lansky would never put himself in that position. Right. So, So, but, you know, what do those add up to, I mean, those connections are real. You know, when the mob got thrown out of Havana in 1959, Lansky went to the Bahamas. He was too notorious to be admitted into the United States. That was like, you know, people knew who he was. I mean, he was respectable in Havana. But he's, you know, honored him as a great business leader and visionary of, of, of Anna's future, but in the United States people understood that he was a gangster and not get into the United States when, when he lost all of his, uh, holdings in the van and he had to go to Israel. because Israel will take in anybody, anybody Jewish.

Speaker 1So Angle, so my landscape goes to Israel and his interests and he's going to act consistent, consistent ways with the Israeli security forces. That's for sure. And he had a lot of, you know, he was a wealthy guy. He controlled a big financial empire. and this, you know, BCI is part of that, obviously, you know, so, but that sort of comes back to the quibono argument as opposed to like any specific connection.

Speaker 2Right. Exactly. And another thing about landscape is that he's involved in heroin trafficking with the French connection through the Corsican Mafia. And so, you know, when we get into the conversation about what is the allegation of the mechanics of how specifically Israel would have assassinated Kennedy, the answer is you kind of end up going through French courseicans, allegedly.

Speaker 1So, and you can throw in that Bill Harvey favored assassins from the courseicans mafia because he felt the southern Italy, the Sicilian mafia, they talked too much. But again, that's pretty generalized and you can make those kind of arguments and a lot of different directions. And it sort of depends on your assumptions. And you can't use your assumptions to prove your facts, right, because that's just, you know, that's

Speaker 2Yeah, well, one another thing on my landscape that I think is very convincing and I leave on the board explicitly to further review, which is the presence of Jim Braden, Eugene Braden in Dealy Plaza. That's Lance Key's main main, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh uh, uh uh, uh uh, uh uh, uh a bag man career. And he met with H.L. Hunt earlier that day or the day before rather, of course, the big day and realized points to is that Jack Ruby also met with H.L. Hunt that day and they were there. But there's not hard evidence. Of course, people may not be telling the truth. There's, I think the Ruby thing was like he was dropping somebody off there at the building.

Speaker 2It's what he said after the fact, We didn't mean that they met together, however, Ruby, the night before the assassination, visited Braden at the Cabana hotel. I'm sorry, visited the Cabana hotel and Braden was staying at the Cabana hotel.

Speaker 1And then the last, how strong, where was Braden and Dealing Plaza? Is that confirmed?

Speaker 2Yes, yes. So he said that? No, no, no, he's arrested that day. So he's arrested. So he first of all, he has his name change in September from Eugene Braiding to Jim Braiden. He's arrested standing outside of the Daltech building or not. I'm sorry, he's arrested inside of the Daltech building and because they're like, you know, you're suspicious. We don't know who you are. So we told the police and he said he was just walking around Dealey Plaza looking for a phone. So I'm not saying he's a shooter per se. I'm just saying that is interesting that he's there and has these ties. But what do you make about that? To me, if this is the metaphors, this is where we're putting the puzzle together. I take that piece and I go, that's something. Let's put it over here to the side.

Speaker 1I don't know where to put it right now, but it's... Yeah, no, I mean... the presence in D. Lee plot, you know, that's significant. That's why I asked, you know, is a confirmed. I've forgotten that it's confirmed because he was arrested. I was thinking of, you know, was their photographic confirmation. So, you know, he's there. But, but, but, but, but, How does that, is that an Israel connection? Is that an organized crime connection? Is that a Dallas coincidence? You know, I mean, you can put it on the scale. I think it's definitely, it's worth mentioning, like you say, okay, you know, that's significant. Let's put that here. But, you know, in terms of evidence of Israeli complicity, right, that is not evidence of Israeli complicity.

Speaker 2Exactly. It's the same thing with like the course again, point like.

UNKNOWNYeah.

Speaker 2the same argument could be used for the CIA or Marlansky or some other, you know, the LaCosa Nostra or whatever, you want to say. So that is the challenge. All right, let's get to a rebuttal. I'm going to get yelled at three different times in a row here. I'm good enough. I'm smart enough. Stewart Smolley, he's gonna gotta get my ego up here so I don't okay. All right, um, here's the first for bottle. Matt, you forgot to mention Ruby's rabbi Hello Silverman. Okay, so let me just, I had it in and I took it out because, uh, I just didn't want it, I'm trying to keep the things under 30 minutes, and I felt like it was superfluous to me. But launch story short, Ruby's rabbi was one of the first people who, to note that Ruby killed Oswald on behalf of Jewish people. Silverman said that Ruby killed Oswald, quote, to show that Jews had guts and told Silverman, I did it for the Jewish people. And Silverman also, I mean, he's, you know, got loyalty to the state of Israel, he fought in the Hagenah.

Speaker 2I'm sorry, the hogina back in the day, I didn't mention this one because I didn't think it was a particularly important point, you know Ruby was Jewish, Ruby went to services, he did know his rabbi, the rabbi did come to visit him in jail, none of that was particularly suspicious to me, so that's why I omitted it.

Speaker 1I mean he did it for the Jewish people. I mean the explanation that he offers and I don't find it particularly convincing is it's kind of like a two-shot thing that he was afraid that the Jews would be blamed because a Jewish guy took out that ad with the black borders, accused of Kennedy of treason, then Kennedy was killed, the Jews would be blamed, therefore he had to kill Oswald. I mean, that argument doesn't make any sense to me. You do not kill somebody on national TV, on some vague pre-sentiment like that. That's impossible. That's not why people kill people, you know? And to say that's why Jack Ruby acted, Yeah, that is not serious. You know, I talked to a woman who was friends with Ruby. Her name was her stage name was Gail Raven. She was a dancer in the Keraselka. And she danced on that circuit of strippers who went from New Orleans to Tulsa to Dallas. It's kind of the Southwest.

Speaker 1And so they, you know, they'd go through Dallas twice a year, basically, or three times a year. And Jack was very sweet on her and was asking her to go out, asking her to marry her. And she was like, no, Jack, you know, I'd just be your friend. And so I got in touch with her daughter and she put her, the woman wouldn't talk on the phone with me, but the daughter would convey my questions and she would answer them and then give me the answers. And so I said, why did you? And there's a whole, the women who worked in the Kerasel Club. They've written books and stuff. She was there. This not made up. The other girls who worked there remembered her. she went down and saw Ruby in the jail after the assassination and I said so why did your friend Jack kill Oswell and she said I don't think he had a choice and I said what do you mean and she said you know Jack worked for people everybody works for somebody and I just have the feeling that he didn't have a choice and he had to do it.

Speaker 1Why do you have to do it? She said, I don't know. Who did you have to do it for? She said, I don't know, but she knew him very well. And that was her impression. Second thing I asked her was, so what did Jack think about President Kennedy? She said, I never heard him say word one about JFK. But I'll tell you something. He hated Robert Kennedy's guts with a purple passion. So. Ruby kills the guy who killed the president and he hates the president's brother. I mean, already the two lone nuts scenario is like falling apart, right? He's not alone, he's acting under some kind of compulsion. He hates the president's brother. He associates with organized crime figures. So that whole story isn't particularly credible. Nor is the story that Ruby killed Oswald because he was afraid of anti-Semitism. It seems to me that Ruby's an organized crime want to be, the CIA has a huge problem in that this guy who they've been watching for four years is going to go on trial.

Speaker 1And that would be a nightmare for the CIA and probably the end of the CIA once people learned that Jim Angleton and his friends have been surveilling him for four years. So somebody gets to Oswald and Oswald solves the CIA's problem, and everybody at the CIA gets to keep their jobs.

Speaker 2Yeah.

Speaker 1Yeah. So, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so so, so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so His life in the underworld milieu seems much more important than his Jewish identity. I guess I would put it that way.

Speaker 2And that's what's hard just that is, the thing that's hard to sort out. So I'm glad you said that. And I'm also glad you used the word milieu because it's one that I only come across and read it. assassination literature. So next Rebuttal, this one is from Jeff. Another thing I forgot to mention. Matt, you forgot to mention Happy Meltzer. Last night, I listened to your latest episode and in response to your closing request for feedback, thought I could profitably mention Harold Happy Meltzer, whose name came to be associated with QJ Wen documents, who was Meyer Lansky's Even back in 1993, he caught the attention of Peter Dale Scott and deep politics in the death of JFK and for what it's worth given the source Meltzer asserted is asserted to have been in Dallas on the 22nd by Hank Alberrelli in his book Cool and Dallas. So point taken. I did come across happy Meltzer I did it felt like it was like a degree of separation for further than I needed to go or like, could go.

Speaker 2However, hearing that he was in Dallas that day, that's it's interesting. I have not read Alberalli's book, who in Dallas, I understand the theory in Otto Scorsany and the date book and all these things. I know the general outline of it, but I'm going to read it. I'm going to cover the claims and that at some point as well and what I do, I'll come back to this, but point taken.

Speaker 1And he thought so. So Harold Meltzer was definitely recruited by Harvey and considered an asset of some kind in the ZER rifle program. Was he in Dallas? I mean, Hank Alberrelli's dead when you try and get confirmation of the stuff he says in his book, You know, let's just say it's not always easy to get confirmation of the claims he makes. So, you know, was Harold Meltzer in Dealy Plaza. We need something stronger than an assertion of that. And so if Jeff's got that, I mean, you know, I'm not ruling it out. I'm not arguing against it. I'm not deliberately, you know, not mentioning it, you know. It's a thing, I know it, what's its significance? I don't see its connection to Oswald or the events in Dallas is a connected disease or rifle, which is connected to Dallas. Yeah, maybe, so let's keep it in mind. But what, you know, and so the secondary detail was he in dealing plaza? I'd like to know that.

Speaker 1If that's true, that would elevate his significance. Big if true, as well. Yeah, you know, when I was in the Washington Post newsroom, we used to have a joke, you know, when somehow rage a story would come in, we'd say, too good to check, you know, just running. You know, you don't need to check. This is too good to check.

Speaker 2So yeah, but you got to check. outline here. All right, this is from Young Coxy on X, and he asks, what about the Israeli reporters? So, and what about, you know, Ruby saying that he's acting as a translator for Israeli reporters, it's true that Ruby said that he was acting as a reporter that we can. That's corroborated in a few places. The one that jumps out for me is the trans the Warren Commission transcript of his the guy who was across the street from him who had a parking garage or parking lot and then he let Ruby use his phone and he overhears Ruby talking about being there for Oswald coming out I forget the guy's name. I mentioned it last up a few episodes ago, but but anyway, um there's some there's some documentation for it, however, and well, and we also know that Ruby was there for it at the police station, he corrected the statement about Oswald and the free cubo committee to the fair play for cubo committee, and that's on tape.

Speaker 2I couldn't find any evidence of who the Israeli press people were, what their names were, the the details around them. So it's something that I'm aware of, but I couldn't find enough factual evidence to me.

Speaker 1I think he's making a reference to what Wally Rashid referenced in one of his videos, which was Israeli press coverage of the differences with Kennedy in 63, which was interesting that, you know, They were reported, they wouldn't mention the nuclear issue, but they would just say there's a sensitive issue between the United States and Israel. And I think that's what the, I don't know if they're talking about when they say, you know, the Israeli reporters, maybe he's making a reference to that. I don't know anything about Israeli reporters. in Dallas, are the Israeli reporters telling, if Ruby had a role, the Israeli reporters, I mean, I don't know, you know, it gets awfully speculative. Were they informing Ruby? Were them? That strikes me as a implausible means of causing Ruby to act in any way.

Speaker 2Yeah, I don't I guess, I don't know what the deeper implication of it is, but it is, if in fact, there were people there, it's interesting to note that, you know, nobody knows who they are. The most famous example for that in the whole case for me is the dark-complexed man that's next to the umbrella man and puts his fist up and then he just walks away and no one ever knows who he was, but anyway, all right, that's made it so far through these or bottles. Let's touch on Permandex really quick. Do you know much about Permandex, Jeff?

Speaker 1I mean, yeah, I know the basic outlines of the story. I know you know, a little bit about the Italian investigation of these things and the larger context of gladio and stay behind networks, NATO influence, the covert NATO influence in Italy, place where Angleton was very active and had lots of contacts and friends. So, you know, what's, yeah, so let's go through, you know, what is the Permindex allegation?

Speaker 2Sure. Yeah. So basically, Permandex is one of those things, you know, for me that I remember hearing it and going, I haven't got it around to that. But once I cover Permandex and I go deep down that whole, man, I'll really, really be getting to the bottom of this thing because the mind, like Permandex is where all the secrets were hidden and it was like, oh, I still have that. It was like, you know, it's like the last present on Christmas morning where you're like, I still have this one to open. But anyway, I opened that box and let's talk about it. The biggest, the issue is, once you get around to zooming in on the details, there's no documentation, surprise, surprise, and the most And, you know, people always try to discard it by say, Sarah, because they're a communist paper and the context of the Soviet Union, et cetera, et cetera. But for me, the biggest bigger challenge is we don't know their sources.

Speaker 2We don't know. I mean, and they got some things provably wrong. They said, Blue is Bloomfield owned 50% of Permanent X. He was just a lawyer. He didn't know any of it. For, by way of example, so this guy, George Mantello, who helps a lot of Um, a lot of Jewish people during World War II get out of Europe by working at the, uh, Salvadorian consulate in, um, in Switzerland. Uh, so he saves all these people during World War II, and, uh, he wants to start a World Trade Center in Basel, Basel, Switzerland. Long story short, it doesn't work out, and then they move the thing to, uh, to Rome. And you know, they're continuing to push it. And it's open for like a year and a half two years, it flops. It doesn't work out. Okay. The, the allegation is, hey, Permanent Dex is actually a, you know, the CIA, basically Sarah said the CIA and the FBI. But the allegation is it's the CIA sending money for covert operations and assassinations, which later, you know, that kind of looks a lot like Operation Gladio.

Speaker 2So it's not like there's nothing there at all to support this, not like you're crazy for saying this. It's just uh, there's not super tight evidence on it and I know people are going to make fun of me. What do you want? There's not evidence. But here's what there is. And this is kind of how I looked at it based on the documents. Okay. So, oh, this guy's name. How do you say it? Forens. Nugged. Okay, this guy, the former Hungarian Prime Minister, he's already a CISAT. He's one of the board members. He's the president of CMC Permanentex. CMC is the owner of Permanentex. And he's already a CISAT. He goes to the CIA, and he offers, I'll put a CISAT on the board. I'll put a, I'll hire a CIA asset for you, but then the CIA denies this request and then later on when the CIA is looking at this issue during the garrison trial, they go back and there's a memo that says it's not clear whether or not CIA, you know, took them up on it and actually worked with Permandex.

Speaker 2And you know, there were some allegations that money came from the CIA for that. And I believe there's a Chicago Tribunal article. There's a, I think the church committee came out that there was some CIA funds going to the OAS. Is that right? I'm not, I'm not aware that that was confirmed.

Speaker 1Okay. Okay. Okay. Certainly, to go all believed it.

Speaker 2Sure. Okay. And then gladio, can you quickly touch on gladio? Just in case people don't know what that is. Um, so.

Speaker 1a counter-insurgency technique is when you lose a country, when you lose control of a country, you create what are called stay-behind networks that can organize opposition to the new government. And so the idea for NATO was fearing that NATO countries or Western European countries would go communist, or would break with the United States, that you would want to have these networks in place that could resist if there was a communist government in Italy, for example, or in France, or to take even more relevant example, in Greece. And so these stay behind networks were created, and this is a standard tactic when when Castro took power the CIA immediately tries to create stay behind networks in Cuba. And some of the leading figures who we see in the JM wave station and in the JFK story. are part of these stay-behind networks. Tony Sforza, for example, becomes a top officer in the wave station, was part of a stay-behind network.

Speaker 1Now, the Castro security forces were very efficient, and the U.S. really had no stay-behind networks. But this is a standard tactic, and it was a standing policy of NATO to create stay-behind networks. So, There was a stay behind infrastructure in Italy, in Greece, in France. And I think that the... The larger sense of this argument and in this way I think makes more sense is, you know, this is an intelligence, a counterintelligence posture of the United States, and Permanent Dax is somehow part of that, right? It's a, it's a, it's a above ground channel for covert, for funding covert missions. You know, and play Shaw had some role in it. know, some connection to it. But again, you know, we're pretty far a field. And that's not to say that Clay Shaw wasn't a CIA agent. He wasn't an officer in the sense that he, you know, was had a staff position, but he was somebody who clearly did covert work for him.

Speaker 1And Victor Marquady, who worked, who was an aide to Tom Caramacenus, ahead of the deputy director of operations at the time, you know, he said that around the office, Caramacenus and the other senior officers said, you know, yeah, this is a guy who we count on. And we have that document that surfaced in 1993, where the CIA historian says, yeah, Play Shaw was a highly paid contract officer for us until he's sick. So, you know, Play Shaw clearly had a relationship with the CIA. He had some connection to Herman Dex is part of the, you know, intelligence, milieu of Italy, Angleson has a lot of friends in there. You know, all of that's true, just, you know, does it get you to Dallas that, you know, maybe, but I'd have to see more evidence before I said, you know, there was a real connection, a causal connection.

Speaker 2Right. Yeah, and the permit decks like how that leads to Dallas isn't super clear to be honest with you. There's there's more argument, but let me and with regards to Shaw quickly on permit decks. He's on the board for permit decks and and why well pretty compelling reason. Okay. And the reason is, because he's running the international trademark in New Orleans and they want to do a carbon copy of it and put it in Rome, my biggest question on Permanent Dex is like, why do they keep caring after they fail so hard and Basel? Why does he want to go to Rome? Why do they, why did, what's their desire? What's pushing this? That's what I thought was weird about it.

Speaker 1Well, yeah, and you could say, you know, who better to establish a covert funding channel? Then a guy, then your main guy who created You know, the trademark in New Orleans, you know, and people forget about Clay Shaw. Clay Shaw was a big deal in New Orleans. I mean, he was, you know, highly respected. You know, he was well known as kind of a forward-looking leader of the business community. There's no contradiction between that and being a highly paid CIA officer. In fact, that's part of the reason why the CIA would want somebody like that was precisely because he was well placed accomplished

Speaker 2Yeah, shot, shot reported back 33 times to the CIA, which it's like, I don't know. What is the illuminati, too? He just went out on that 33. It's amazing. I wish I was a real one. All right. Next, Lewis Bloomfield. I just want to touch on him in the context of Permanentex, too. Of course, Fred Litwin is the world's historian on Lewis Bloomfield and two Fred's credit while Fred and I don't agree on the conclusions for the case. He's got some, the things he chooses to choose us to dive into, he often has really good primary documents, newspaper, clipping, CIA reports, etc. But the point is, Lewis Bloomfield, look, he's a attorney for the Bronfman family, okay? So the big money attorney. organized crime connection, sure. He loves the state of Israel. He works for the Sautoborn Institute to raise money for to send weapons over to the Hagenah, okay? And he's the lawyer for Permanent Acts and some of its shareholders.

Speaker 2So, but again, we're just pointing to relationships and connections. What's the argument on the who shot John Angle? You know what I mean? That's, that's, I mean, I mean, I mean, look.

Speaker 1I don't know anything about Bloomfield, so I, you know, I shouldn't comment. I mean, I mean, but I think that what I've said before applies, okay, he's a Zionist. He's connected with the CIA. He's loyal to Israel. Yeah. That's not a causal connection to events in Texas. All right. I want to hear you.

Speaker 2Yeah, no. I mean, that's wasn't convincing for me either. And I know we've been here for a while. So I just got a few more points here.

Speaker 1No, no, no, take your time. This is good. I like this.

Speaker 2Thank you. Thank you. I want to talk about Michael Collins Piper's ultimate theory. So what he, you know, when I say ultimate, I mean, like ultimate theory. I mean, like his bottom line at the end of the day, what is he saying happened. When Bunguri on resigned, he was so mad at that time that he told Yitz Akshimier, who is the head of Mossad at the time, to kill JFK. And then Shimier met with French intelligence, Colonel Georges De Lennurian, to hire an assassin. The evidence that he met with Daelinarian comes from a French intelligence officer named Pierre Nuvel. But all we have is that Pierre Nuvel told Michael Collins Piper this. So we have a French intelligence officer who says, Shamir met with Delanarian and he told them and asked, you know, have to hire an assassin. And then he doesn't know anything else. Then he speculates, okay, that the assassin that was hired was Jean Svetra. but there's no evidence for that aside from there's evidence about sweatshirt being in Dallas and then of course this is just a confusing wilderness of mirrored scenario sweatshirt says there's another guy named Michael Merit who actually uses his name all the time who's a big French connection heroine trafficker guy who's also in assassin and anyway

Speaker 2the French government reached out to to the CIA to try to see if they knew anything about sweatshrubbing uh... deported from fort worth on the day of the assassination because the goal was coming to Mexico and they wanted to know like is he in Mexico still or what so i think the john sweatshrub thing while not definitively established is suspicious let's keep him on the board because again he could be sure could he be most of it okay but he could also be CIA he could be he could be mafia I mean the point is he's this you know there's a great HSCA quote from Ewing I forget his first name Mike Ewing I think yeah he's a he goes through a sweatress hold the whole background and it goes so yeah that's not the kind of guy you want to see in Daley Plaza or Um, but yeah, that's that's the ultimate theory.

Speaker 1And so yeah, okay. So so okay. So you know, when people make big claims like that, you know, do we have a tape recording of Piper's interview of this guy? Do we have a transcript of the interview where we could check his work? You know, I mean, you want to be taken seriously with these grand claims like you need to back it up. I mean, that's not, you know, that's not avoiding the facts. That's not defending the war and commission. It's like, what's the credible reason to believe this? So if you make your transcript available, you make your tape recording available. And I might say, when I say stuff about Angleton and stuff, That's based on tape recording interviews that I'm glad to share with anybody. I don't have any off-the-record sources, okay? I can give you a transcript. I can give you a tape recording. So, he's making these big claims. Let's see the evidence. Let's see your transcript.

Speaker 1Let's hear the recording. And oh, it's an anonymous recording. He doesn't want to make it, you know, when I start to hear excuses like that, then your credibility starts to decline. So if he's credible he should be able to prove it and I you know, I'd love to see the evidence

Speaker 2Anybody who wants to, so I think there's two angles you could take listening to this. If you believe that Israel is behind it, if you support Piper's theory and I'm not laying it all out, let me know. I will do a whole set of answers.

Speaker 1If you have some corroborating information that you'd like to call to the attention of JFK facts, send it to morally JFK facts at Gmail. more M.O.R. L.E.Y. J.F.K. Facts at Gmail. And I'd be glad to take a look at it. I'm not avoiding this object.

Speaker 2Right on. And so yeah, let's just a couple of more things. Let's go to Echeveria, Homer, Homer, Echeveria, yeah, etcheveria, etcheveria, etcheveria, etcheveria, etcheveria, etcheveria. So the day before the assassination, This Cuban exile, Homer etch of area, who's funded by Johnny Rosselli's group, told an FBI informant who was a gunrunner, this guy Mosley, that his group would be able to buy weapons soon because they were now supported by Jews and they would have the money as soon as we or they take care of Kennedy. So for me, I wasn't sure about what about the, I'll say one thing first. I thought it was funny that both mostly and at your area, they're both bus drivers. And you can't go like that's their day job. But anyway, I'm not sure about the state of Israel on this, you know, because saying that You know, now that we have we're supported by Jews is not the same thing as being supported by Israel it could be but it's not the same thing could it be someone like my or landscape or like highman learner or, you know, whatever.

Speaker 2Yeah, sure it seems like, but it does seem like actually various four knowledge is real given the timing of the statement given. You know, his ties to the 30th of November group that's backed by Russelli's little group that he put together with Paulino Sierra and and also the secret service verified this that this wasn't just some crazy guy because they went and witnessed at your very are mostly rather meeting with that you're very and then they stopped following them so their tail wasn't discovered but I To me, this one, there seems to be something there, but I know you probably know a lot more about it.

Speaker 1So when etch of areas said, you know, the Jews have more money. That was a kind of mafia gangster element that was behind that. Paulino Sierra was was important there. But it seems like that was a kind of... almost described as an underworld initiative that these were the interests that we're looking to get their gambling concessions back. After the Bay of Pigs and after Kennedy cracks down on the Cuban exiles in Miami in April of 63, the movement is in disarray and there's all these efforts to, well, you know, we got to get unified and so body Kennedy and Harry Williams They're one group trying to unify a Cuban leadership group that is not connected to the Batista and the Batista and I'll be old and trenched interests of Cuba. And at that same time, summer of 63, this other group, led by Paulino Sierra comes in and they're trying to disrupt that effort. They want the Cubans to come to them, not to go with the Bobby Kennedy effort.

Speaker 1And so they're going around appealing in Miami, Chicago, other places, saying, look, Cubans got to get together and we got to do this. If you look at the money that was behind that, if at your various says the Jews are with us now, that's probably mob money. I mean, that's just who they were, that's not state of Israel actors. That's organized crime actors, that whole group, that whole enterprise, of forging unity in the summer and fall of 63 among Cuban exiles led by Paul Lino Sierra, that was a gangster effort. And so, edge of areas comments about the Jews, that's much more likely to refer to somebody like Lansky than to state of Israel.

Speaker 2Putting the, the conversation, putting the point aside about the Jews, isn't it true that, you know, given who this guy is and given the timing, do you think that this document kind of indicates that he had for knowledge?

Speaker 1Well, you know, there's a slight wrinkle, which I'm not going to remember exactly, but when they went back, he said the story was no, he was talking after the assassination. something like that. So, there's a little counter narrative to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to The Cuban Student Directorate was shopping for weapons in the fall of 1963, and they were going to different cities with a shopping list, which we have, on directorial stationary, and it's a couple pages long, and it's, you know, they were shopping for heavy weaponry.

Speaker 1Now, the Cuban Student Directorate is funded, and it's run by George Jordan Eadies, the chief their in Chicago, and they're also in Dallas in the fall of 1963. And Echeveria is one of the people who's in these discussions of, can we get these weapons? You know, what are we going to use them for? So, the feeling inside the DRE was that there was a big action coming on Cuba in the fall of 1963 and they wanted to be a part of it and that's why they were shopping for weapons. One guy said that the big action was expected in the third week of November of 63. So, there is this, and of course, the D.R. or the people who are exposing Oswald. So, here's a milieu where people seem to know that the assassinations coming. They might have known about Oswald. There's certainly anticipating big action in Cuba in the fall of 1963. So, you know, yeah, it's something, that story that he tells, that's one of the stronger four-knowledge stories that's out there.

Speaker 2And I didn't cover that in my four-knowledge episode, which I feel like I need to go and up to you. Yeah, so let's get it out there. Yeah, for sure. All right. Another rebuttal. And I've got this one more bottle than we're going to cover all of her stone. And then we'll be out. So the rebuttal is this is also from young coaxy. And the rebuttal is you can't write off at your area as just a roselli guy, because there's no roselli without highman learner. and just like Happy Meltzer, I also didn't give Hyman Larner, you know, his due coverage. In my defense, there's not much on Hyman Larner out there. There is a book by a guy named Mike Corbett, a former police chief and a Chicago suburb who also was on the payroll for the mob. And that book argues that Sam G. and Connor was released from prison because Hyman Larner helped the CIA funnel weapons to Israel. Now, this is consistently what I said in the episode, though, which is that we should not ignore attributes, statement to mostly.

Speaker 2I think it's a rock worth looking under. So, but, you know, even if Hyman Larner is the Jewish entity that atcavary is talking about, that still doesn't necessarily implicate the state of Israel, it's more of a mafia thing.

Speaker 1Yeah, I don't know anything about Werner. So, you know, Werner's, you know, the guy, he made Johnny Roselli. I, you know, I confess, I have no way of assessing the claim like that. I don't have that, I don't have that kind of knowledge. So, you know, let's say it's true. Werner has a big stake or somehow, you know, big influence over Roselli. And, you know, might have, therefore, It's sort of the links argument, oh, there's links between these people. You know, 63 years on, I'm trying to get beyond links. You know, at this point, links are a weak argument. You know, in a field where there's a lot of people who know what they're talking about. You know, and we've seen this from this discussion. These people are bringing up this real information, you know, people know a lot about this. So if we're getting a more granular understanding of what happened in 1963, we got to do better than links.

Speaker 2Sure, yeah, I agree with that. Let's talk about Oliver Stone and how he secretly corrupted the world on behalf of Israel, just kidding. Now, so Oliver Stone and Arnawn Milchand. So the allegation is that Oliver Stone had this Israeli spy on his and executive producer on the film JFK and that that somehow And at first, I thought this was silly, it was wild, but I looked at, you know, this, this, it is true that this guy Arnold Milchian wasn't Israeli spy, but it was really more of a, a weapon's dealer. He works for, for, like, him, I believe. And they, the bureau closed in 1987, but whatever, you know how intelligence works, he could have gone under a different thing, yada, yada, yada, yada. The point is Oliver addressed this directly, and you were standing next to him, and I was standing on the other side of him, So I put right clip in the episode and he, you know, says, you know, basically the guy came in late.

Speaker 2He wasn't involved. He did know he was some sort of Israeli big shot. He didn't know what he did, but it didn't matter because it was at the end and he had already made the movie and had nothing to do with the editorial content.

Speaker 1Yeah, I mean, I mean, I believe Oliver and if he Oliver, because of this Israeli influence, change the theme of the movie that would have been indicted, Mossad, and instead said something else. I mean, you know, anybody who knows the story of how Oliver got that, how he became interested in Jim Garrison's book, how the screenplay was written with Zack Squar. I mean, those facts don't fit with any of that argument. You know, I mean, so it's like, when people make that argument, I'm tempted to say, uh, you actually don't know what you're talking about. Okay. So let's just leave it at that. You don't know what you're talking about.

Speaker 2Well, I think it's I'm happy to raise it because it's like one of those things, man, you know, during COVID was one of the first time in my adult life when I saw experts be banned for things. I'm like, oh, this guy's a professor at Stanford. What are you talking about? You're banning him. So, so the point is when you when you don't talk about something at all and you go, we're not talking about it. Then people go, well, we must be over the target. So I just want to shine a light on all the things and people can decide what, you know, what makes the most sense. All right, so wrapping up for people who think Israel is behind the JFK assassination, you know, like I've said, with you on motive, especially nuclear proliferation and to some extent you and resolution 194. I believe it was the number. And I'm with you that Angleton was too close to Israel and his loyalties, you know, were sometimes questioned by insiders and he very well,

Speaker 2helps them get the nuclear weapon. It's what appears to be the case. But for me, you know, it's just, it's just not quite there. So last rebuttal here, and that is from a fugue state on X. He says, I find your reasoning odd in this episode. Of course, there's no hard proof of Israeli involvement. You think they would confess in a written memo and triple-kit? This is the kind of thing that Loan Nutter say. There is much, there is much suggestive evidence as much as for any other scenario. Also, according to his wife's memoir, Yitzak Rebeen was in Dallas on 11, 22, 63. So really, the first thing is criticizing my analysis. Fair enough, you know, I've explained why I think what I think, but that's not the beautiful thing about solving JFK is I don't profess to know everything and my opinions And regarding Yitzak Rebeen, that's a good point to raise. I think I'd come across that, but I didn't make it's way in the episode, but again, not hiding it.

Speaker 2So that's not disputed. Everyone agrees that he was in Dallas. It's in his wife's own memoir, so that doesn't seem to be described.

Speaker 1I mean, you know. A lot of people were in Dallas, so November 22nd, like a million people. Okay. So, you know, the fact that Richard Nixon was there and left that morning, you know, how significant is that? In and of itself, it's not significant. Rebeen was there. I mean, Rebeen's a senior IDF officer. He's the guy who really designed the strategy that won the six-day war, highly regarded, obviously, in Israel because he later becomes, you know, a prime minister. But, you know, I mean, to me, it would be more interesting if Rabine was in Dallas a month before the assassination rather than the day of. So in and of itself, So, you know, so what does that tell you? You know, maybe it's significant. I'd like to know more, who was he with? What was the purpose? So it was some kind of delegation I've seen, but I'd like to see the research behind that. But, you know, the idea that this is a slam dunk and you know, improve something about Israel, the fact that we are being said this,

Speaker 1You know, there's a lot of people in Israel who are still alive, a lot of friends are ravine from hell of it, you know. Like you believe this so much, why don't you make a phone call and ask somebody if it's true, you know? Like don't recycle this stuff on the internet endlessly, believe me, everything that's been said here, I've heard before, right? Everything. None of it is new to me. And I tell you, I'm telling you what I make of it. I'll tell you what's interesting, Matt, What's interesting to me is the most important piece of understanding this issue has never been mentioned by any of these people. It has not come up in this conversation. And that's a book by Ronan Bergman called Rise and Kill First. And it's the story of the Israeli assassination doctrine. From the founding of the state of Israel too, whenever the book was written fairly recently. Ronan Bergman's a reporter for the New York Times to write a book like that and I urge people who are interested in the subject to read it because it explains the Israeli policy.

Speaker 1This is how we assassinate people who we regard as our enemies. Here's how we did it in 1964. Here's how we did it in 1968. Here's how we did it in 1976. So when people talk about the JFK assassination and they say Israeli involvement, You know, I say, it's their doctrine, and all the people who are talking about this seem unaware of that, okay? It's their doctrine. That's not to say that they're involved in Kennedy's assassination, but it's an ir- ir- indisputable point that Israel, unique among nations, has and affirmed the clared policy of assassinating its enemies as early as possible. Well, it belongs in the conversation, I would say that.

Speaker 2Yeah, for sure. And you know, just trying to be open-minded as the key and like you said it, if there's a big claim, it requires big evidence. So for me, I'm not, my big takeaway from this is that Permandex, I was disappointed when I got to the end of the Permandex rainbow. I'm not saying this deep-long, I'm not saying there's nothing there because gladio was a real thing, and that was after it. But it's just not definitive and then the whole thing of how Michael Collins Piper says it happened. I just, you know, there's not enough support there for me and There's so many well they were doing it while they were doing it while they were doing that's what's crazy about about this case Is you know in law something called an intervening super seeding cause I believe like in the doctrine of negligence Where it's like the idea of a wick has been lit And okay, it's gonna go and blow up the dynamite, but then another wig comes in and it's lit the after the first one was lit, but it's closer to it.

Speaker 2So that's the one that literally causes it, even though the other one was about to cause it. Sometimes I wonder if that situation is going on here by different groups somewhere in this case, because there's just so many people that have means motive and opportunity. There's like, oh, Jay, it's like so many things, but you don't have a guy, it's not Mac Wallace. Okay, so, so Yeah, it's hard. Turns out this is a tough thing to figure out.

UNKNOWNHa ha ha.

Speaker 2Anyway.

Speaker 1Yeah, so yeah. And so I guess, so one thing is, I think that the Israeli assassination doctrine is an important part of this story. And should be, you know, considered in context like what was rubbing do it? Was he part of this doctrine? Did the doctrine apply to Kennedy? Did anybody in Israel say that at the time? You know, Bergman's book is incredibly detailed. He had access to hundreds of top-missied people. So, you know, there's people who have talked about this. So, you know, that's one thing. The second thing is, you know, Angleton is the most important figure in this, because he is the connection between Israel and the Oswald file. right? His connections both ways are deep and indisputable. He controls the Oswald file. He reads all of the 42 documents that are in it between November 1959 and November 21st, 1963. And at the same time, he's friends with the Chiefs of the Israeli Security Services.

Speaker 1So that's the nexus that's relevant. Do all of this talk, all of these things add up to a case for Israeli complicity? I don't see it. I don't see it. But there's a lot of interesting facts in there. So I say the focus on Angleton is certainly appropriate.

Speaker 2Well, thanks again for being with us Jefferson and would you want to mention quickly before we go what you have going on over at JK facts and then you just wrapped up a David Morales five part series and there's also You have a post about the state of the case in 2026 and the CIA manual of trickery and deception those are those are things that I think would be yeah, so you know

Speaker 1In the, in the JFK story, people come to me and they say, Jeff, you know, here's what I think. I think that this happened in that happened, and then this happened, and then that happened, and that's how Kennedy came to be killed. What do you think? And I say, could be, maybe, maybe not, you know. And then I tell people, you're looking for the one true JFK story. You're looking for the one narrative that explains it all, okay? JFK Facts is about the one new JFK story. And that's a much more modest goal, okay? And much more achievable, I might say, right? I'm gonna tell you something new about the JFK story. Oh, Bill Harvey traveling in the United States in 1963. We had a story last September. Yeah, he obtained a fake credential to travel under his alias, William Walker in 1963, something that was never known before. And that's interesting because one of his colleagues saw him on a flight to Dallas in November 1963.

Speaker 1So that's a story we're pursuing. What do we know? What's in the new files about what Bill Harvey was doing in 1963? We're looking for one new story. We're not going to explain the whole assassination to you and tell you, wrap it all up for you. Because we're not capable of that. But what we are capable of is giving you something that you will get nowhere else in elite media or in alternative or conservative media, which is original reporting about new information related to Kennedy's assassination that is trying to get at the causes That's what we're doing at JFK Facts on Substack. And if that's the approach you like, then I urge you to sign up, get a free subscription. You can see what you're all about, and then get a regular subscription, which is very cheap five bucks a month, and you'll get our in-depth reporting of the kind that I've described. Perfect.

Speaker 2Yeah, it's it's good stuff highly recommend JFKFacts.org. Last thing and I'll let you go. The Luna hearings, the task force and any updates that you're aware of, what we can expect in 2026.

Speaker 1There's no plans for a JFK story. I need to follow up with representative Luna and present all of the what the research community regards as outstanding documents and I urge people if they have, you know, assassination related documents that are generated by the government and are known to exist and have not been made public. You know, we want to put those in front of Representative Luna, she has a good record of going after those records and obtaining some from from from the CIA. So the task force is is celebrating its first anniversary, but it remains in existence. When I talked to her, maybe a month ago, she said the task force is going to continue in existence, you know, as long as I want it, she has the support of Congressman Colmer, the chairman of the oversight committee. So, you know, we're continuing to push for records. Is there going to be another JFK hearing? You know, I don't know, they had two on JFK, they had one on MLK, you know, what's the appetite?

Speaker 1You know, we're at the mercy of these big political wins, you know, Epstein has taken all of the oxygen out of the room. You've got a huge constituency that's interested in UAP, they want to have a hearing. So, you know, can we break through all that static and achieve things? I think so, but, you know, it's hard and we've accomplished a lot in the last year, we've learned a lot and, you know, so the window hasn't closed. I put it that way.

Speaker 2All right.

Speaker 1Good.

Speaker 2Okay. Well, um, appreciate it once again and listeners of Solving JFK will be back with a series on the Soviet Union before you know it. Thanks back. Thanks again.