James DiEugenio on Rob Reiner, Robert Tanenbaum, & Delivers a Rebuttal to the Solving JFK Mafia Series

Speaker 2Today's bonus episode, features someone who very much represents the gold standard of serious JFK scholarship, James D. Eugenio. I've been a fan of Jim's work ever since I first read Reclaiming Parkland, a book my wife gave me right when it came out. And that book was important to me because it was one of the first places where I came across a truly high level point by point rebuttled to the official story that was carefully sourced, meticulously argued, and intellectually honest, which was important to me. It took on Vincent Bugliocie and analyzed the film Parkland, and it did it without any theatrics or shortcuts. For me, that book was a turning point in my own journey with JFK assassination research. Gems also written the JFK assassination with Lisa Pees, Destiny betrayed as well as JFK revisited through the Looking Glass, which was made into a very successful documentary directed by Jim's friend Oliver Stone.

Speaker 2Over time, Jim and I went from being a reader and author to co-authors somehow on the JFK assassination chokeholds, and I'll be honest, I still have to kind of pinch myself over that. Everyone in this field knows Jim Deugenio and his work at KennedysandKing.com has made him the most formidable critic of JFK assassination literature. Jim specializes in critique and dissects books, sources, arguments, evidence, all that on his website. So I always knew this day would come at some point. Up to now, Jim and I have largely been in the same foxhole. On the big questions of the case, I can't think of much of anything where we fundamentally disagree. But in my recent Mafia series, Jim reached out and let me know that he took issue with some of the sources I used and some of the conclusions that I explored. So I wanted to have Jim to you, Jenny, and himself come on and talk through another perspective on the mafia.

Speaker 2Jim and I may not actually be as far apart as he may think, but I don't know, I could be wrong about that. So coming up next, we'll have James, do you, Jenny, on solving JFK?

Speaker 4In Dallas, Texas, three shots were fired at President Kennedy's motorcade in downtown Dallas. The first reports say that President Kennedy has been seriously wounded by this shooting. The man lay a formally job at the assassination question. The man gets the hat of the magazine. The man is me on board. It's also packed in a home.

UNKNOWNI was here my perfect spurs. The mission answers. I can do it.

Speaker 3I can do it. I can do it. I can do it.

Speaker 2Jim, welcome back to Solving JFK Man. Thanks for being with us again.

Speaker 0my, my pleasure, Matt.

Speaker 2All right. All right. Um, I buttered you up in that intro so that you may be going to be here on this. Help me. Well, Jim, I know, you know, recently we lost two big players in the JFK assassination research community. And I know that, you know, to me, these were people that I had brief interactions with and whose careers I know about, but these are people that were your friends that you worked closely with. So I guess if you wouldn't mind just kind of, Telling us a little bit about, we'll start with Rob Reiner and then Bob Tane and Bob and your thoughts on their passing.

Speaker 0The Rob Reiner thing was, I was just horrible. When I, when I first saw it, I thought it was a hoax. This isn't a hoax, it really happened, you know? I knew Rob Reiner because several years ago, he was actually going to do a mini series, a cable TV mini series on the JFK case, and he had purchased the rights to three books. and these were the last investigation by Gaten Fanzi, which I'm sure most people listen to your show, have either heard of or read that book, Dick Russell's book, The Man Who New Too Much, which is about Richard C. S. Negal, and the third book was Jim Douglas's book, JFK and the unspeakable now those you could make one a heck of a mini series based on those three books all right I mean I mean you think of the characters you would have you know David Phillips you know Richard K. Snigal John Kennedy you The guy who was the executive producer at the studio, Ted Gold, got fired.

Speaker 0Now, before he got fired, I had a premonition about this because I was working with Rob on this because, uh, Somebody had given him my name, and then he called all of her, and all of her gave me a good recommendation. And so I met with them, and he wanted to hire me. So I asked them, I said, who approved this project? And he said, Chad Gold. I said, man, that guy has got Hutspa. And he said, the title he put on the project at the studio was American Kudetan. When I heard that, I said, this is not going to last long. It's another thing to put a title like that on it that, you know, there's very few people going to read the actual screenplays, but the title, you know, I mean, so I, in the back of my mind, I kind of started counting the days, and then, okay, and so that's what happened. backers. I think he went to Europe to try and find financial backers, but he couldn't. The project he was envisioning was, I believe, he planted for ten parts.

Speaker 0So you figure, like 10 million in episode, All right, or even if you brought it in at 5 million in episode, you're talking about 50 million bucks. So, he turned it into a successful podcast, and that helped, I think, at 7 million listeners, all right, and that really helped a lot at the anniversary, okay, along with what the doctors saw. Oh, oh. He got a contract from a Simon and Schuster to do a book, okay? Because of the success of the podcast. And that's what I think he was working on at the time of his passage. You know, to be perfectly honest, all the times they went over to Rob's house for these meetings, these production meetings, I don't think I ever saw him there. I did see his daughter. Okay, but I never saw this guy. And by the way, he actually made a movie about his son. It's called Being Charly. And this guy wrote the screenplay. Co-wrote the screenplay. Wow. Anyway, now the other death that we're talking about.

Speaker 0is Robert K. Tannambaum. Robert Tannambaum was a graduate of the Bolt Hall School of Law at UC Berkeley. All right. He went there on a basketball scholarship. It's a big guy like six, six or something like that. And he then went back to New York because he was born in New York. Frank Hogan's legendary DA's office and he was accepted. They didn't accept too many people, but he was accepted and he rose up to ranks and he became the head of the homicide division. Bob never lost the felony case in all the years he was in Hogan's office. And he not only tried murder cases to verdict, but he supervised scores of cases. So he really understood the ins and outs of criminal law. in 74, Bob told me, if that wouldn't have happened, he probably would have stayed there as long as Hogan was there. That's how much he liked working under Hogan, right? when Fred called Tanambam and asked him, do you want to go down to Washington with me and be my first assistant on the JFK case.

Speaker 0Tanambam said, all right, okay. And so he decided to quit the DA's office, go down to Washington. and work under SPREG on the House Select Committee on Assassinations. Now, let me, let me say this, if ever there was an opportunity to really accomplish something on a JFK case, with these two guys, there really was, SPREG was a brilliant prosecutor. All right, and he made a name for himself on the jock of Yabanski case, all right, in which he did exactly what we were supposed to do in a multi-level conspiracy case, he arranged a series of trials, okay, going from the bottom of the conspiracy to the top, convicting all the perpetrators. Bob actually wrote a book about this called Cold Country Killing in 2023, which I read. When the House Select Committee was forming, Henry Dunzallus and Tom Downing, who were two of the leaders of that committee, and by the way, I have to put this in there. I visited Tom Downing,

Speaker 0at his office in Newport News, Virginia, a beautiful, beautiful place, okay. Huge office. He took out his folder, but he still had from the House Club Select Committee days. The irony is that is just because there's everybody knows what happened is, these two guys got involved in a murderous suicide pact, okay, first the committee in a dispute between Gonzalez was gone as they had to the committee, but Gonzalez within one after Sprague day after day, day after day, and until finally, the congressional leader said, the committee will not survive with you as the chief counsel. And so Sprague fell on a sword, all right, and he resigned. The media had a lot to do with this. All right, because they went after Sprague the way they went after Jim Garrison, okay? Sprague had an almost unassailable record, all right? But then Nicholas Horock, at Newsweek and David Burnham at New York Times, went after Sprague

Speaker 0Okay, and the impossibility of solving the JFK case 13 years later, and so Sprague was gone. Tannenbaum and Sprague had made an agreement that if one went the other went, but Sprague told All right, so just stay on as a caretaker kind of thing until they find somebody else to replace me. All right, and so Tanabam stayed on for a few months afterwards. And Tanabam actually did some interesting things. For instance, he hired two investigators, Okay, he wanted New Orleans investigated, because he told me, you know, it always puzzled me. Why was a CIA lying about Clay Shaw? You know, why were they lying about his employment with him? All right, and so he opened up this investigation into New Orleans. All right, he hired Wacht and Bodden. as he's going to be his forensic pathology team, and at that time, I noticed it's hard to believe for your listeners, at that time, Bond was in the conspiracy camp, and this indicates to everybody who's listening, to see a change that happened after

Speaker 0Chan and Bond and spread left because I don't know any other way to explain this. But Bob and Flipped as did Andy Perti, okay, Andy Perti was one of the people who lobbied Congress. In fact, he was in Downing's office because I think his father knew Downing, Tom Downing. I think Andy Purdy showed him the recruiter film. He showed down in the recruiter film. But then Andy Purdy got hired as a investigator. And he's changed sides. All right. And so what happened is that, and I believe, and Chan and Bob actually told me this, When they got rid of Sprague, that sent a signal, okay? And the signal was, there will be no serious investigation of the JFK case. See, because the difference was, Tannenbaum and Sprague were frontline prosecutors. In other words, the day we're in court, trying all kinds of felony cases, including homicides, right? And so they understood how you did a homicide investigation, okay, from the ground up, all right?

Speaker 0And that approach, that approach, as L. J. Delso told me, All right, you know, Congress operates by the principle of compromise, all right. And that cannon bomb told me, you know, Jim, there's, there's no democratic Republican way to investigate a homicide case, all right, you, you accumulate the evidence. That's what you do, you know, and you build the case, all right. And so this is what they were going to do, all right. One of the more interesting things that Tannenbaum and Spray Egg weren't involved in was Mexico City. And remember, this is before Eddie Lopez. Because Eddie Lopez hadn't joined the committee yet. They were very interested in what was going on in Mexico City. And they were very interested in David Phillips' role in Mexico City. All right, and so Chan and Bob called in David Phillips in a private deposition, okay? And he asked him, if Oswald was in Mexico City, why is there no picture of him going into or out of the Cuban embassy or going into and out of the Russian embassy?

Speaker 0Now, if you know anything about Mexico City and the camera coverage, you know that that's simply is not going to fly because there were a total of five different cameras. There were three in front of the Cuban embassy and two in front of the Russian embassy. Okay? All right. And so he says, well, our camera was out that day. mechanical air can occur, what happened to the tape? What happened to the tape because we know you had a bond? And Philips says, we recycle our tapes every seven or eight days, okay? So that would have meant that the tape disappeared. All right. The problem is that Tanabam knew that it hadn't disappeared, okay? Because Mark Lane came into his office, and he gave him the famous jagu-hover memo saying the agents in Dallas have listened to the tape that CIA produced, and the man they're talking to is not the man on the tape, all right? And so, Tannam bomb wanted to indict Phillips for perjury and put the committee back off.

Speaker 0They wouldn't even bring him back. Now in this dispute that Tannam bomb has a Dan Hardway, you know, Dan says they did bring him back. That was under a different regime, that was under Blakey, Phillips agreed to come back under Blakey. And so, Chan and Bob and Spray were very interested in Mexico City, and in fact, they wanted to bring up the typewriter that the Terrasaw family used, because the Terrasaw were the transcribers of all the tapes, okay? the transcriptions that they had because, and this is a very, very interesting point, they suspected that Philips had fake the transcriptions, okay? This is how interested they were. in the world of David Phillips, okay? But we know what happened, all right? Spray left, and then Tannam bomb left, and they brought in Blakey and Billings, and it was a whole different thing, and this leads to the subject at hand, the mafia and the JFK case, because we know that Blakey and Billings,

Speaker 0one of their big agendas was to go ahead and leave this imprint of the mob and the JFK. In fact, that was, that was, I think, their prime objective, all right. Now, before we get into that, let me explain something. First of all, you have to, I'm sure you've read Gating Fungi's book, right?

Speaker 2Yes, it's excellent.

Speaker 0Yeah. The last investigation is a very good book. In that book, he captures how obsessed Blakey was with leaving this impression that organized crime, and he was obsessed with it from the beginning. And if I get and told me, as time went on, It got worse and worse, and the reason it got worse and worse is because they kept on getting so much information about CIA involvement in the Kennedy case, and so Blakey got even worse and worse about this, and him and Billings, and I should talk about this little bit, which hered Billings was a co-editor of life magazine, and life had done an article a matter of reasonable doubt about the JFK case in which they had hired people like Ching Thompson and Ed Kermn, okay, to do his series on the JFK case. Well, to make a long story short, it didn't come out like it should have, all right, and Billings was involved in that, but Billings then was assigned.

Speaker 0to do a further investigation, and this is how he ran into Jim Garrison, because Jim Garrison was doing an investigation of the JFK case. All right. Now, Holland McClume's was the managing editor at life. In other words, he was a step above these guys. He more or less put the kabosh, on the life magazine, investigation, especially when he found out what Garrison was doing. All right, that is important background to understand what Blakey and Billing just did with the Houselet Committee on his House of Nations. All right, because although the Houselet Committee report, does not come out and say that organized crime killed JFK. Their book did. They wrote a book that came out right after, all right. And they did come out and say that organized crime had killed JFK. Now, to go through some of the things in your series, And these are going to be my points of disagreement. But before I get into that, before I get into that, let me preface that with this.

Speaker 0I think you have a really good site. Most of the stuff you have up there I think is very solid, and it's very backed up with credible sources. And I think yours is very well produced, both technically and intellectually. It's one of the better sites that's out there. Okay, I mean, you really, really have to be careful. All right, and let me explain why you have to be careful, because there is no Sam G in Con a library of documents, evidence. Okay, there is no Santo Traficante archives. All right, you know, with tapes and with dogs, okay there. So what you get is people's memoirs and these mafia guys are not, come on, if they told the truth, they don't be in jail, okay? So it's very, very difficult to separate the weeds from the child. All right, now let me begin with something that I've I would not use Seymour Hirsch as a source for anything, period, especially the John of Kennedy case, because I don't know if you know this, you probably do.

Speaker 0Seymour Hirsch was literally caught with his pants down. on this home Marilyn Monroe, trust agreement that was gonna be in his book. He wrote a hatchet job on John F. Kennedy called the Dark Side of Camelon. All right. He had a million dollar contract and he spent about five years putting together that book. The crowning piece of what was gonna be the Dark Side of Camelon was what Hirsch proclaimed to be a trust agreement between the Kennedy family and Marilyn Monroe. And the trust agreement was made up of three main parts. Number one, she would not reveal her affair with John F. Kennedy. Number two, she would not reveal her sighting of him with gangsters. Okay, and number three in return, the Kennedy family would take care of her incapacitated mother. All right, this was the trust agreement. Now, now, math. Just on the surface, who could have bought this? who could believe something like this?

Speaker 0You know, first of all, where did Marilyn Monroe C.J. of King with Gangsters at? Peter Lawford's house? Did Sam Giancana come over to Peter Lawford's house? Okay, I mean, because that's the main place where she ever saw John F. Kennedy. Did they bring in Traffa Conte? All right, can you imagine bringing Traffa Conte with Bobby Kennedy there? This thing was ludicrous, you know, right on his face, but Hersh was so determined to smear in the can of these that he bought it, he bought into it, and not only did he buy into it, this is how he sold the book to ABC, because ABC, now this is what's so unbelievable. If you're gonna pay 1.2 million Would you not forensically test its most important documents before you spent the money? ABC didn't. They didn't. And neither did it hers. Even though hers had a million dollar contract, he did not test the documents. So ABC finally did test the documents.

Speaker 0After they bought the book, complete forgeries. the penmanship, even the dates, because they had zip codes before they were zip codes. All right, where everything was wrong, it was a complete hoax, all right. And so they had to correct the galley proofs of Hershey's book, all right, but ABC had already committed to the project. All right, so they were stuck with it. All right, and okay, so this is why I have a very serious problem with anybody who called Seymour Hersh on a JFK case for anything, all right, now on top of that, Seymour Hersh said that, see, there was this other cockamame story that Judith Exner, Judith she was going back and forth between Washington and Chicago with messages from i can't even say this stuff and keep this rate phase with messages between jfk and jenconna okay why you would use somebody like her it's just to ridiculous the contemplate okay because extras credibility was not the best by this time I think is book was published in 1997 and there had been several exposés about extra up until that time.

Speaker 0So he said Martin underwood saw her, okay, getting off to train with the satchel, you know, Martin Underwood, I think was an advance to me and it works for Kennedy, aren't you? Well, here's a problem with that. Jeremy Gunn, who, as you know, was the Chief Council for the ARB, a range of deposition for Martin Underwood before the board, okay? And they asked about this. uh... he says i saw no such thing okay not just not true so in other words now her shas a second custard fight uh... all over his face okay wrote real quick are you saying that there was no relationship between external jfk or just that no that's not what i'm saying okay what what what what what what i'm saying is this that this whole nexus of the mob using her as a go between between Washington and this is garbage. And then by the way, by the way, when all this was first discovered back in 1975, because as you know, this was discovered by the church committee.

Speaker 0All right, she had a press conference down in San Diego. Okay, as you said, there was no relationship between Sam and Jay. She said that. I found the article. Okay, et cetera, et cetera. All right, none of that happened. Okay, as time went on when she needed the money. Okay, and people magazine was out. They paid, they paid her, if I remember correctly, $50,000 for a story. they couldn't come up with anything. And so finally, the editor's wrote the story, and that became this whole idea of actioner as the goal between for the mob. All right? All right? So now, Hershey's now hoisted on his own paternity second time. All right? So I went through a lot of Hershey's book. Look. The best conclusion I can come up with for why he wrote that book is that he had an agenda. That's the best conclusion I can come up with. And he tried to fill in the whole book into that agenda, and I pointed out so many things that are wrong.

Speaker 0with the book that, if I were you, I just wouldn't use anything. Now to get to this, to get to this Joe Kennedy stuff.

Speaker 1That's right.

Speaker 0This idea that Joe Kennedy was in business with them, organized crime, is so ridiculous as to be, you know, it's, it's advisable. Okay, for so many different reasons, Okay. He had made tons of money already in real estate in the stock market. Okay. At the young age, like 25, he moved to New York. All right. So he could actually be on the stock market. Okay. But then he found a way to make even more money. And do you know what Right. Okay. He was going to get into the movie business. All right. And they show you how smart this guy was. He was going to get into the distribution branch. There's three main parts of the movie business. There's exhibition. that is, the theaters have showed the pictures. There's production, the studios that make the pictures, and there's distribution, the companies that ferry out the movies to the theaters and then bring them back with the money. He was smart enough to know that's where the big money was was in distribution, because in distribution, you're in on the first dollar, okay, that the theater collects.

Speaker 0Joe Kennedy owns, get this, three distribution companies in Hollywood. He was making over 50 movies a year in distributing them. Can you imagine the money that's got, he was so good at this that the other studios wanted to hire him as their chief executive and when they did, he insisted on being paid Now, if you don't know what stock options are, stock options are, you get shares of stock, but you get the pick where and to sell them. All right, you don't have to sell them right now. And so you wait to let hits a certain mark and then you can sell them, all right? And that's how he got paid. And this is how he made all the money to buy that big, what's that building this, the merchandise market?

Speaker 1The market? Yeah, that's the market, that's it.

Speaker 0Yeah, in Chicago, which at that time was the biggest office building in the city. Okay, all right, and so that's how we eventually got into the giant real estate now. Knowing all this and knowing that Joe Kennedy was worth conservatively about $300 million by and by the way, he had a mansion on Rodado Drive and Beverly Hills. Let me say that again. Joe Kennedy had a mansion on Rodeo Drive and Beverly Hills. Now, if you don't know Los Angeles, you don't understand the import of what I just said. Okay, because Rodeo Drive and Beverly Hills would be like Park Avenue in New York. Okay, I can imagine what the price of that place is today. All right, and he had the whole thing. He had butlers, he had house maids, he had chauffeurs, he had a rose voice. Okay, and now you're gonna tell me he wants to get down and dirty with Jen Connor. He's leading this kind of life. Okay, maybe I should get into some illegal prohibitions.

Speaker 0Now, if Kennedy had done any such thing, Russell O'Kent wrote a book called Last Call. It's the best book there is about prohibition. He went through 900 pages of documents on this whole issue. Because whenever Joe Kennedy was sought after by President to serve on commissions, because he had money, he had influence, he knew a lot of people, and he's pretty knowledgeable. Every time he did that, there had to be an investigation of him. Okay, and so Russell Kent got these 900 pages of documents. Not one word by anybody about Joe Kennedy being involved in any kind of illegal liquor operations. Okay, none at all, period. Now, Joe Kennedy did get into the liquor business after prohibition. Okay, all right, very smart to get an after because he knew there would be this pin up demands for it. Okay, and so that is when he got in and he actually made a lot of money off of that. Okay, now I also noticed that another source you use, which I was very surprised that is double cross.

Speaker 2Sam Jankon, half-brummy look, he's half-othered, Jankonna, enough full-brothers.

Speaker 0All right, double-cross. Double-cross is this supposed memoir by people who related to Sam Jankonna. Okay, now give away to this book because it wasn't published after JFK came out, 1992, all right. So clearly, the ginconas we're trying to capitalize on the media firestorm that was created by Oliver Stone's film. Now, I reviewed double cross, and to me, That has about the credibility of Seymour Hirsch. Okay, there's so many problems with that book, like for instance, they say that Sam Jain Connor, and I'm glad you steered clear of this. Sam Jain Connor owned the contract of Marilyn Monroe. Oh, please, come on. All right. You know, we every book about Marilyn Monroe will tell you that Joe Shank and Johnny Heide were the two people who managed her career. All right. And the idea that she would want to Sam J. and Connor over those two guys, I mean, that is just nutty. Okay. And then in that same book,

Speaker 0They have, I can barely say this stuff. They have Giancana meeting with Jack Kennedy in 1959 in Florida, telling her about the C.I. plot's the kill Castro. The C.I. plot's the kill Castro didn't begin until 1960. OK, so what would they be talking about? You know, with this messaging stuff, before Kennedy ever got to the, it's complete, it's complete science fiction. Okay. So if I have a warning for you, don't, don't use double cross as a source anymore.

Speaker 2I think I noted, I think I said something along the lines of like, if you believe Chuck King.

Speaker 0You're right. If I would have been you, I'd have said, if you believe and you shouldn't.

Speaker 2To your earlier point, Jim, about studying the mafia, there's no primary documents, there's no library. So it's kind of like, this guy says this, this guy says this. You know, and that's kind of what I was doing, perhaps I didn't make it clear. Let me ask this. So do you think Joseph Kennedy had any meeting with Giancana and that judge's office? No, no.

Speaker 0No, no. Look, when you do the things that Hirsch did, when you do those kinds of things, okay, I simply don't trust that author anymore, because he's proven to me that he will use very questionable methods to go ahead and gain access and get to the information that he wants. So I don't believe anything in a dark side of Camelon. All right, I just don't, it's just a non-starter for me. Right now, now you say that it's difficult to measure. Okay, one word of, okay, but there was 900 pages of FBI documents, I mean, to me, that's kind of pretty convincing, okay, that not one person ever named Joe Kennedy as being involved in that whole scheme. And by the way, this is right after prohibition, all right. So this is why I have serious problems about that. Now, you mentioned RFK finding out about DCM off your plot to kill Castro. But I don't think you described how he found out. Did you describe how he found out?

Speaker 2Um, I probably didn't just probably for, you know, length, but please let out.

Speaker 0Robert Mayhew. was doing Giancana, a favor. I think you might have mentioned this. Robert Mayhew, who enlisted resell the Traffacante and Giancana in the say Mafia Plaza Kill Castro, did Giancana, a favor because Mayhew was a big wheel in Las Vegas and Dorothy McGuire and her sisters were singing in Las Vegas and Giancana thought that his girlfriend was having an affair with the comedian, Dan Rowan, all right. And so he went to Mayu, and one of the stupidest things that Mayu ever did is he hired somebody to wire Dan Rowan's room, OK? And the guy that he sent there got caught red handed. wiring the room. Okay, and so they called in the police and the police turned it over to the FBI. Okay, and the FBI went up the ladder to Hoover and then Hoover told Bobby Kennedy. Okay, Hoover told Bobby Kennedy. You know, and Bobby Kennedy was just livid. He couldn't believe this. You know? All right, he has come on.

Speaker 0Are you serious? Yeah, and and So then, he demands a meeting with the CIA, right? And I think it was Sheffield Edwards and Houston, the Chief Council for the CIA, who briefed him and they lied to him. It's a very important point. They said the plots were over. Now, you want to know how bad that is in the declassified inspector general report. It says right there, right in the report, and the report was written in 67. It says, as they said this, they knew that Harvey and Ricelli were continuing the plots. So they knew it was a lie as they were saying at the Bobbie Kennedy. That's how bad these guys are. All right. Okay, now you also use Ed Parton. at part and flunked his polygraph test in mind of that I don't know if I knew that but I know for Ed part and I think I put your name in there for the Ed part and things that you I noted your critique in advance on it all right but I I I had that thing and Ed part and flunked his polygraph test now on on the West Virginia and Illinois stuff you did put John binder in there

Speaker 0Okay, now John Binder is a professor of statistics at the University of Chicago, and he disproves this whole idea about backing Kennedy in 1960, all right. You didn't mention Dan Fleming, Dan Fleming wrote a really good book. That is very hard to find. Kennedy versus Humphrey West Virginia, 1960, all right? And he says in there, there were three inquiries after the fact into this election. One was by the FBI. One was by the West Virginia attorney general. The third one was by Barry Goldwater. Okay, none of them could find anything illicit about the election. And even Humphrey's guys, they said, look, you know, Bobby Kennedy ran a very smart race. And if we would have had his money, we would have ran a very smart race like he did. Okay, see, Bobby Kennedy, I think the estimates I saw, he spent about $250,000. in West Virginia, which considering that is not a big state, you know, that's, that's a lot of money, okay?

Speaker 0And he put on this terrific half-hour program like two nights before, and let me tell you one last thing, and this just explains why they didn't have to do anything illicit. There was a guy who was part of the minor's union had him switch from home free to him. And then a week before the election, he met the Kennedy guys at this airport. And they brought off a big case. Okay. And they brought it to his house. And he had told him, He had told them, I need 3,500 bucks to cover the whole county, to get the papers out, to pay for drivers, to get people to the polls, okay, et cetera, all right. They misunderstood, they gave him 35,000 dollars, and said it's 3,500. I gotta get rid of this money. And so he started driving around the state and dumping all this money to these other word chairman. Okay. All right, and so that's how they won the election. Now, I agree that if you wanna say Bobby Kennedy bought the election, yeah, yeah, I could understand that because Humphrey didn't have anywhere near that money, that kind of money.

Speaker 0All right.

Speaker 2And so you would say, Bobby Kennedy helps to buy the election in West Virginia. Yeah. Illinois, no relationship. This whole idea that the Giancana helped to put Kennedy in office and then Kennedy double crossed them. No. That's just, you know.

Speaker 0Wow, come on, are you really serious? These mobsters, these mobsters had been roasted. by the candidates. Okay? And you're going to tell me they're going to be stupid enough to go ahead and try and get that when Hoffa had this great relationship with Nixon, right? Okay, go, you know, so no, I'm so bad. I think I think let me finish, let me finish. I think Double Cross was a commercial project. But that's what they used to sell it that and that Marilyn Monroe garbage. Okay, that's what they used to sell the book and they did because the media eats this stuff up. All right. All right. Now, Hoffa was killed because he was trying to retake control the union. Okay, that that's I think the best reason of why Jimmy Hoffa was murdered and they never found his body. Okay. Now, you, do you make the distinction about Lansky and Shingo being part of the Jewish Mafia?

Speaker 2Uh, yeah, I mean, I, I discussed that. Yeah, I think you're, you're different in depth, but yes.

Speaker 0Yeah, okay. And in, in the case where Shingo went to jail temporarily for murder, they got rid of the witnesses. That's how he got out. Okay.

Speaker 2All right, just real quick on the whole election. It doesn't, for me, it kind of doesn't, it doesn't, that's just like a side story, I guess. And it's important to get it right, and that's why I wanted to have you on to give the point to against it. And I hear what you're saying. But yeah, I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts on the substantive argument that the mafia's role in JFK's assassination.

Speaker 0So what are we going to get to that? All right, man. I noticed you had a lot of footnotes to Lamar Waldron.

Speaker 2Your boy. I knew you were a fan, so I wanted to, I thought, what can I do? He'll make Jim respect this series. He should have put no Lamar Waldron. Well, it's because he's the guy who brings forth the, uh, the camp tech story with Carlos Marcello.

Speaker 0Well, we're, we're going to get to that.

Speaker 2Yeah, which is relevant to discuss.

Speaker 0We're, no, it's not, but we're going to get to why. All right, I, I, I don't know if you know this. I had two five hour debates with Lamar Waldron at Leonardo DiCaprio's office, Appian Way, in West Hollywood.

Speaker 2Please tell me what that.

Speaker 0Did you know about that?

Speaker 2I knew that you had some connection with Leonardo DiCaprio and that you weren't a fan of Waldron, but no, I did not know that.

Speaker 0Leonardo DiCaprio's father is very interested in the JFK case. All right. They wanted to do a documentary based on Walden. And I think what happened, she Bobby is friends with Leonardo. Okay. And so Bobby got in contact with Paul Shrade, the late Paul Shrade, the late great Paul Shrade.

Speaker 2Bobby being Secretary of Health and Human Services.

Speaker 0And Bobby Kennedy Jr. Okay. And Shrade got in contact with me. And so then we went down to Leonardo's office. And for five hours one day, and for five hours another day, you know, we went over his books. Okay. And to put it mildly, it was an acrimony as debate. Baldwin does not like being criticized, okay? I don't think most of us do, but a couple of times he just exploded, okay, out of his share. I threatened to leave, you know, they had to calm him down, all right. But I was kind of surprised at this, that, well, let's continue. But that could, now, you, do you really believe Bernard Barker was on the grass, you know?

Speaker 2uh... no i don't believe well i don't know but i know that there's a person see more whitesman who who identified the picture but he's in and it's he's like in a home at the time so there's a bunch of asterisks around it uh... when i say about burn on burger you put it after that you know and i uh... let's what's the exact context though do you have it

Speaker 0No, I don't have the exact context. You were quoting Waldron, as saying Bernard Barker was on the grass, you know. You did not say that you agreed with it, okay. But you did put it out there, all right. See my whole golden rule about this is that the more extraordinary the claim, the more extraordinary the evidence, that's the prime rule, you know. And so, you know, I guess, I want to know if you really believed that or not.

Speaker 2Here's what I said. I said, for example, according toward an A to RFK told author's Tom Hartman and Lamar Waldron, your good friends, Cuban exile, CIA, asset and Watergate Bergler, Bernard Berger, was working for Trappacante before during and after his time with the CIA. And Barker is the person who Dallas police officers see more whites when identified as being the secret service agent on the grassy Know those things are true. So I'm not saying I'm not saying that they're substantively true I'm saying it's true that see more whites have been said that that's all I'm saying all right.

Speaker 0Okay.

Speaker 2All right Danny Sheen is a legal legend The Iran contrast stuff. I thought it was pretty baller the the Pentagon paper is you don't think so

Speaker 0How was Danny Shean involved in the Pentagon Papers?

Speaker 2Uh, wasn't he, wasn't he, didn't he represent Hillsburg?

Speaker 0Danny Shean represented Houseburg.

Speaker 1I thought so.

Speaker 0That's something I didn't know. All right, that's something I didn't know. I started the Pentagon Papers pretty closely. I didn't know that Danny Shean represented Houseburg in the, in the Pentagon Papers case.

Speaker 2I mean, I mean, here we go.

Speaker 0Show, send it to me. All right, all right, now I'm sure you you didn't know that Danny she and Rand Chris sick into bankruptcy.

Speaker 2No, I don't go super deep on someone's life, unless there's, you know, the reason. But I think it's important to a pertaining to she and because his claim is so substantive.

Speaker 0It's so, if what he's saying is true, it's just, I don't think it's very substantive at all, but that's all right. Well, I want to get, I want to get back to this legal level. There's no stuff because, The Christic Institute was one of the most popular and one of the most effective forces on the left that we had for a long time, all right. Danny Sheen decided that he was going to take their money and put it in to this lawsuit again, shackly. Okay. Now, if you ever read the outlines of this lawsuit, To say that it was a mouthful, doesn't do injustice, okay, and she and went into this case, and after it was over, Christic was no more, okay? He gambled everything on this lawsuit against Ted Jackley, It didn't turn out very, so when you say he's a legal legend, I have a hard time compromising that with the whole story of the Christic Institute.

Speaker 2His perspective, that he litigation led to the Iran country hearings, but perhaps I don't know enough about the underlying underlying.

Speaker 0What led to the Iran country hearings was this 14-year-old kid with a rocket launcher on his shoulder, taking down Oliver Norse supply plane down in Nicaragua with one guy surviving. Okay, Hassenfuss, and that guy squealed on the whole Oliver North of Secret Operation out of the White House, and that Bob Perry then wrote a front page article on the New Republic that spoke, that's what led to the hearings about the Iran-contrast thing, because the White House had denied that that's how that started. Okay. All right. Now, Dutch Marad did not work for Sam's say in 1963. All right. This is one of the connections that you have. In the declassified house select committee hearings. All right. It's right there, all right, that does Merit in a deposition, I think there were two witnesses that were related to him. They both said that he wasn't working for SAMHSA in 1963. He had quit that in 1961, okay, and he was doing something else at that time in 1963.

Speaker 0Oswald did not spend very much time with his aunt when he returned to New Orleans. Okay, just a few days. Now, let me get to your two biggies. Okay, headbacker and camtex. All right. Headbacker had this famous quote, which you use about, I don't even wanna go into it. the dog in the tail, and if you cut off the tail, the dog is still there, but if you kill the dog, okay, that whole thing, meaning that if you kill JFK, that eliminates RFK. Well, there's evidence now that that conversation never happened, okay, and there's a guy, I can't go into it because he's writing a book about it right now. All right, he checked up on the conversation, the people who were there, et cetera. All right, no becker. All right. And so that's all I'm going to say about that right now. Okay. All right. Now the cam text recordings. Give you a little background on this. All right, with another inmate, all right.

Speaker 0And in these conversations, the guy said that Marcello had talked about his role with Oswald and the Kennedy assassination. All right, now, Waldron came out with this stuff and I believe in 2006 in one of his books. I don't know if you probably don't know who Peter Veele was. No. Peter Veele was the Malcolm Blunt before Malcolm Blunt. Everybody in the JFK community knows that Malcolm Blunt was the greatest archive researcher for about 10 years in the JFK case. He used to fly in from England. And he used to make a run through the National Archives, Kennedy, the Kennedy Library, etc. And he would send me loads of really interesting stuff. But before that, there was a guy named Peter Vier. And if you talk to Malcolm, he looked knowledge that Peter Vier was Malcolm Blunt one. OK. These would never, you know, Waldron calls him Camtax. All right. He found his stuff in 1997. 10 years before Waldron ever wrote about it.

Speaker 0And he sent it to me. And he also sent all the background notes. And then he also sent his notes on the background notes. Okay, because the prison guards that we're watching, And he labeled this series, the crazy last days of Carlos Marcelo, because Marcelo was clearly suffering from dementia at this time. He was talking to himself, who his bang has had up against the wall, okay? And when he finally got out, he was clearly in the throws of Alzheimer's disease, okay? All right, and so this is why, I do not believe the camp text, whatever you want to call them, you know, why I do not think they are viable as evidence, all right, okay, now let me finish, let me finish now, let me say this. The mafia guys like Gus Russo have always been determined to nail Marcello one is, okay. All right, Rousseau's, or somebody browned his circle said that day, Marcelo, you, et cetera, et cetera. Well, Jeremy Gun sent me those.

Speaker 0I interviewed John Vultz, who was the U.S. attorney on that case. There's nothing on the brand of the app tapes. So then what they do is they fall back on the Camtex tapes. leaving out the fact that Marcello was in the early stages of Alzheimer's at that time. Okay. All right. Now Marcello had always been before he went to jail. He had always been very much aware of how the house select committee wanted to nail him on the JFK case. So this clearly haunted him. Okay, and then when he went to jail when he got into dementia, just plagued him. Okay, now let me say something else. Ever since 1978 or 79, they have tried to blow up Marcello into being a larger than life, mafia figure. Did you know this, Marcella was not even on the commission? Did you know that?

Speaker 2He wasn't even on the commission.

Speaker 0He wasn't on the commission.

Speaker 2Oh, the mafia commission, La Cosa.

Speaker 0In other words, they didn't even consider him one of the major figures to be on the commission. Now, what these guys do? They try and say, they try and reverse that. They try and say, Well, Marcelo was so big you didn't have to be on the car. Now come on, give me a break. Just look at the geography. Just do the arithmetic. Just look to the population. New Orleans was a mid-sized city of like maybe 600,000 people. Chicago had 3 million people in it. New York City at nine million people. Champ I had two million people. So obviously, they didn't consider Marcelo with this kind of middle-level size city to be big enough to be on the commission. All right, let alone to go his own way. All right. All right. I mean, it's just, it's just common sense.

Speaker 2Yeah, but, all right. Aaron Cohen of the New Orleans Metropolitan. 1.1 billion dollars a year.

Speaker 0Yeah, yeah, okay, okay, okay, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you They asked so many, many times. Okay, where do you get this information about the mob doing this and the mob doing that? He had no sources.

Speaker 0They ended up sending in the jail for contempt. Okay, so now I know the House Select Committee used airing cone, but that's the reason that they use them. Okay, because they wanted somebody was anti-garrison and pro Marcello, okay, all right, so this now let me say one last thing That I think is very good about your series. Oh, thanks You bring in a guy named Hubert Smith Who was more or less unknown for a long time? He couldn't be more important. And this shows us just how blinded people were to the Ruby case. OK. Let me explain this. Hubert Smith was a very important figure in Texas, OK, in both legal and medical fields. I think he had a foundation that was associated with the University of Texas. It was a law foundation, and he was very, very respected, and he was one of these guys that tried to bring in new discoveries in the medical field into the legal arena. Okay, and he, he was very influential in this.

Speaker 0I think he had a logic read from Harvard. He had an MBA from the University of Texas. Okay, so he was very well educated and very knowledgeable. All right. Now, why is that important? Because he knew Tana Hill. Okay, Smith knew Tana Hill. Okay, and those were going to be the two big lawyers representing Jack Ruby. Now, Hubert Smith got into the Ruby case very, very quickly. Now you quote Tom O'Neill, okay, who's a pretty good source on this. But at Kennedy's in King, we have a three-part series by Max Arvo, who went even further than Tom O'Neill, all right. Hubert Smith was the guy who was very instrumental in setting up the psychiatric panel All right, and then the caparies and do I have to say anything about this, right? Jolly West. Jolly West comes in to the Ruby case, all right? Now, it was Jolly West who was so influential in getting Ruby declared to be mentally unbalanced. See, because prior to Tom O'Neill's discoveries and Max Arbor's discoveries, everybody thought that that was actually Belly.

Speaker 0It really wasn't Belly. It was really Hupert Smith and his panel that he appointed who wanted to go for this, what's it called, PsychoModer Epilepsy, right? Which, and by the way, in Max's articles, He shows that Smith at the very least had to have known that that was a very questionable defense to use. All right. Now what is all this say? In my opinion, and I'm going to register this as an opinion, this certifies the Jack Ruby You know, prior to the Kennedy assassination. And that they were going to make sure that that didn't come out. You know, during Ruby's trial by Cook or by Cook, okay? In other words, by Subterfuge, or if they had to get him declared mentally embalanced, they were going to get him declared mentally embalanced. All right? So nothing he could say, they see, even Ruby, and you have this in your article, okay, to your credit, even Ruby said they're going to find out about New Orleans, you know, and the really feared he really feared Thomas Eli Davis, okay, because Thomas Eli Davis as you have in your article, if you can believe this, but it's true.

Speaker 0How connected can you be, if you could, you J-Wid, getting you out of jail in North Africa? I mean, come on, you know, all right? And so this is what I believe that the CIA was trying to do with Ruby's trial and the extraordinary thing about all this is that it was hidden for so long. You know, nobody knew who the Howard Hubert Smith was, okay? Until Tom O'Neill did that work and then Max Arvo and you repeated it now in your series. But in my opinion, in my opinion, you know, I think this is very, very important stuff. You know, it really sheds a lot of backward light. on what went on with the whole jack would be trial. You know, the whole machinations behind it and the whole bad advice. I mean, terrible advice that they were giving bell-eye about this psychomolar epilepsy defense, you know, and the fact that Smith and by the way, I don't know if you know, I don't know if this is in your article.

Speaker 0Smith was associated with that case all the way until the end. In other words, all the way until the verdict came in. He was associated with that case. And I think I'm trying to get max to write a sequel on this because I think that Smith was associated with the ruby case That's how enchanting was on influence influencing the verdict on Jack Ruby, you know, I mean it's it's really really incredible if when you think about it if they're going to bring in Smith and West if they're going to bring those two guys in They must really got a lot on the table. They must figure that the stakes are really high, to bring both those guys in, because as we know, Smith was a little bit hidden. Okay, but Jolly West, he was right out there. I mean, he was part of MK Ultra. You know, he was infamous, you know, for doing these crazy experiments where you killed an elephant or something like that, you know, right, paid for.

Speaker 0Yeah, I mean, so this, this really indicates, I believe, just how worried they were about Ruby talking at his, at his trial. You know, so your article on Ruby, the stuff that you actually say about Ruby, I think that's pretty good. The whole idea that he was fostered by the Capone gang. Okay, and then God involved with the cubist stuff, Lewis McWillie. Lewis McWillie's very, very important. And I think McWillie was lying about his relationship with Ruby. You know, and I think Ruby was lying about how many times that he actually went to Cuba, all right? And I also think that Ruby in his gun running activities, I believe, was playing both sides, you know, sums to Castro, sum to Batista, you know, not knowing who was gonna win out in that struggle, all right. There's just too many witnesses, you know, who implicate Ruby in this gun running activities, and you have a lot of them in your series.

Speaker 0And this is how I believe that organized crime was involved. I think the story is quite credible that Ruby visited Trophicante, okay, when he was in Trisconia, which was the, it really wasn't a prison, it was like a detention center, okay, it was kind of lax, You know, Traffa County got to bring in his own food and everything, you know, and I think I think Ruby did visit Traffa County at the request of McWillie, you know, in Triscoenia. And I believe this is my theory of the crime. In my opinion, what happened was, when Oswald escaped to Texas to get her alive, I think he was supposed to be shot at the Texas theater, okay, but he raised too much of a ruckus. He was screaming too much. He got in this altercation with the police. There was too much attention, okay, and so he survived the Texas theater. Now, Traffa Conte, Giancana, and Ricelli were involved with the Sae Mafia plots, the So I believe what then happened is that the CIA got in contact with Traffa Conte, and it was Traffa Conte who then told McWillie, to go ahead and get Ruby to polish this guy off.

Speaker 0If you have to threaten this family, threaten this family. But they want this as well, guy dead. And I believe that's what happened.

Speaker 2Okay, so, through Traffacante, not Marcelo like the whole camp text thing.

Speaker 0No, Traffacante was involved in the, Marcelo wasn't. He was involved in C.A. Mafia plots a kill Castro.

Speaker 2So, okay, and that makes sense. Let me ask you a quick question, just back to Marcelo really fast. You said he had Alzheimer's.

Speaker 0Well, if you read what his relative said when he got out of prison, okay, that's what it says. He was closed in, okay, he couldn't talk, he wasn't talking, he was silent, all right? Okay, he was that bad off.

Speaker 2What is like a book on that or something?

Speaker 0No, no, no. I looked up to stories about when he got out of prison. Okay, and when he died. All right. And that's what his relatives all said about him. Okay. I do not find the John Davis book credible. Okay.

Speaker 2If John Davis book, that's the one day.

Speaker 0Mafia Kingfish. He's one of these guys. You want to make Marcello out to be alcohol. Yeah.

Speaker 2So, uh, okay, and so we're not, so, okay, we, we're not, we're not so far apart. No, we aren't, man, we're all, we're all, we're all, I never gave a summary of what I think. I just said they say this, they say this, they say that, if you listen to the recap and rebuttals, I did with Lou Ferante, who you substance until we did.

Speaker 0Oh, you know, I didn't even hear him.

Speaker 2Oh, yeah. Well, did you send me a No, it was a video. It's like a two-hour video. I mean, here's a deal. You would have found the entertaining and agree with some of it, but strongly disagree with much of it. But at any rate, I laid this out towards the end, just sort of I handed those my perspective, which is if, you know, on Jack Ruby, it's somebody's having to do it. I mean, you know, it's clear that someone's putting him up to it. It's not like just Jack Ruby's doing this all on his own. The cherry on top is jolly west. I mean, that's so everybody's in the same page there. Is it traffic context? I mean, I think you're what you laid out is a reasonable theory, especially in a lot of if if Marcelo had Alzheimer's that really undermines everything.

Speaker 0Look, McWillie and you don't have to go by McWillie's word on this. But there are people around Ruby shed this. McWillie was Ruby's idol, okay, he would do anything from McWillie, right, he wanted to be Lewis McWillie, right, you know, he said I was idolizing him, but it's not just that McWillie's girlfriend said that, okay, he said Jack idolized Lewis McWillie, you know, he would do anything for Lewis McWillie.

Speaker 2So mafia involvement through Jack Ruby, but is it at the behest of the CIA or is it at the BTS?

Speaker 0I think the CIA asked as Trump accounted to do them a favor, off off to CIA mafia plots to kill Castro.

Speaker 2Right, but when I was talking to Ferante, what I landed on, he kept his theory is, and this is a guy who was the Gambino crime family, he's written a three volume series of the American Mafia, three volume history pretty well, I mean he's got a lot of food, but what does he know about the Kennedy assassination?

Speaker 0That's what I want to know.

Speaker 2He dug into it, but but so have you

Speaker 0So by 32 years, I think 32 years is long enough.

Speaker 2Yeah, so I understand that, but the point is his argument was that Marcelo is sort of the driving force of the thing, but also, but his argument is that it's also true that the CIA is doing all the stuff they're doing, the Cuban excels are doing the things they're doing and that and that basically Marcelo just continued to fund the CRC after Kennedy Barton the gunships to, to, you know, shut down no name key and Lake Ponce train the bases. Um, and anyway, the, his argument is, well, Marcelo just decided he's going to do it. You know, whatever that means. It's going to do what? have Kennedy assassinated through whomever right we didn't get into the details of like who who who you think the shooters are but but his point was because my thing my question I kept asking him was what about the autopsy we know if there's a conspiracy the prerequisite is that there had to be a fraudulent autopsy so how does Carlos Marcelo have any impact on the autopsy and his argument was well uh...

Speaker 2Carlos Marcelo knew that he had the CIA by the balls and that they would, they would, you know, do whatever you needed to do, and that they would arrange to cover it up. So to me, that was where I kind of part of ways with my friend, Lou Ferante, who I do like, and yet to me, it's got to come from the top. It doesn't make sense. I mean, but the gem with the challenge of it, and Marcelo, But, but to the extent that that the mafia has involvement with the CIA, you got Johnny Roselli, and I don't know if you're, I'm sure you are, but Bradley Ayers book, where he talks about being down, he talks about Roselli being, and that part is probably true.

Speaker 0He was a one who really hit him in a harvey really had a great relationship, okay, and I'm sure you're aware of this, you know, that they used to go out to dinner together, okay, I think we're selling used to go to a harvey's house, right? And Harvey really wanted to do a head and be the CIA's guy to get rid of Castro. And in fact, there's even stories and Lee Server's book, which is the best biography I've ever read of Johnny Russely. All right, Key says that Russely was even on some of the missions that crossed the Florida Keys. Okay, that's how devoted Russely was. Okay, so I imagine what happened is that they got resellated contact, traffic contact, all right, and then traffic contact contacts in the Quilly, and I believe that's that's how it happened.

Speaker 2And there's the relationships there. So it's not like it's you have to create, you know, they have to go make new introductions. These people are knowing each other now.

Speaker 3No.

Speaker 2Um, well, one more thing I want to wrap up on, and then if you have any parting thoughts that's a happy to hear him, uh, back to Danny Sheen really quick. Um, I, I, I, I, I looked this old Elberg thing up because if I'm wrong about that, I should say it. That's a big deal. And the answer is, it appears initially that I'm wrong, but it turns out that I'm right. So. The main journalist on the case was a guy named Niel Schien. So people get that confused. Is that Danny Schien? Maybe they just kind of is name wrong. No, it turns out Danny Schien was working for Floyd Abrams. Who's on the case as an attorney and then we have an email from Floyd Abrams was not the major council.

Speaker 0He's been doing your council on the case. There was a very high-falluding Yale Law School graduate who passed away. He was a league council.

Speaker 2James Goodall or Alexander Bickel?

Speaker 0The cow?

Speaker 2Yeah.

Speaker 0Abrams? And Goodall? Yes. Goodall was a supervising lawyer. He was a guy sitting in the back row.

Speaker 2So Abrams confirmed that Danny Sheen was an associate and his office and was an associate of his office, okay, okay Different for being Matt Matt.

Speaker 0I'm sure you know what it is this the status of an associate in an office is okay because Floyd Abrams worked in a huge A giant one of the big big law firms, okay in New York, okay Right, and just by the way, he's still there because I talked to him a couple years ago.

Speaker 2Okay. All right. So on the on the substance of she and claim and just to be clear, I'm not saying that it's definitively true. So when I say substantively, I don't mean it's true. I mean, if what he's saying is true, that kind of resolves a lot, like that doesn't leave a lot of it.

Speaker 0If what? If what? What are you referring to exactly? Are you talking about this

Speaker 2Well, that's for us so you think here's my question to you. What do you think is going on here? Do you think he's because my I look man I you know, I've looked up the Danny she and I had a nice dinner with him in Dallas one year I saw him and saw him at the when you spoke and I was sitting right behind you I know he was here in Washington. Yeah, I've had I can't get him to come on the show because I can't get a hold of him But I've had positive interactions with the guy

Speaker 0with Danny Sheen, I don't know. I don't know where he gets this stuff and I don't know why he believes it. I'm not saying that he's lying. Oh, I'm just saying I don't find it credible. Okay, I don't find it credible.

Speaker 2He says his the investigator at was the guy at Flee Baylor's law firm, Big Andy Toney went down and talked to Traffacante because Traffacante, they were Traffacante's lawyer for some other stuff, and this is after Watergate and McCord, they were representing McCord. So he had a check in his pocket, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't

Speaker 0about his role in the Kennedy case. But why why would he do that?

Speaker 2Because it was already his lawyer because he was thinking of someone who was already his attorney.

Speaker 0I'm saying if you picture the story at face failure, I say if it happened, traffic contact was blowing wind.

Speaker 2Okay, so you don't think there's anything to the idea that Traffa Conte that and what one problem for me in this is I haven't deeply started the Cuban exiles and started Mungus and and all that stuff in depth and that I'm going to do a whole series on that coming up right and that is interrelated to this and so I guess my question is with the, the plastic kill Castro aside from I know.

Speaker 0Oh, hold, hold, hold, hold it. They were meetings. Yeah. That may you arranged.

Speaker 1Right.

Speaker 0Okay. And Traffa Conte and Jean Conner and Rosalie met with the CIA. Yes. All right. And I think three different occasions. And they talked about how to get rid of Castro. Okay, and Giancana vetoed the gunning down thing and then they despised these other ways to go ahead and get Castro So there was obviously an association Okay, between the CIA and these three leaders of organized crime All right. Now, do I believe Traffa County was involved in Mongus? I've never seen any evidence. Mongus was a separate thing. Then the C.I. mafia plots the kill. All right. The kill Castro.

Speaker 2Right. It kind of.

Speaker 0So I guess so why would you need Traffa County for Mongus anyway?

Speaker 2because the argument is that he had all these people who were working for it in his casinos on Cuba and they were still there when everybody went all the way to use them for the plot.

Speaker 0Dave, drop a count to use some of those guys for the plots, but if you're going to put together an exile army. Okay, then you've got jam wave right there. You got like the biggest CIA station in North America right there. You have all these guys left over from the Bay of Pigs. Right? You know, so, you know, you don't need somebody like traffic hunting, the idea that Bobby Kennedy would be in working with, I mean, please, come on.

Speaker 2Just one last day. So you're not aware of any sort of bass at Merchison's ranch in Waxaca.

Speaker 0I don't want to talk about that, okay? Well, I hope we show people how we can win. Whenever we get into the Merchison ranch stuff, okay, please. All right.

Speaker 1Nothing, Merchison party, which... Oh, yeah, I know.

Speaker 0I know all about that, Matt. uh uh you would love him you know that jagger Hoover was there and Nixon was there and hunt was there you know this guy's were there the night before and they waited till then please okay all right thank you I have a episode on that that I think you would enjoy but you mean in a funny way?

Speaker 2well the the core issue on that is what house we even talking about nobody even knows what house we're talking about yeah you're exactly right we don't even know which this is a mystery is that's why especially stuff without primary documents is is really tough but uh... i'm looking forward to something that everyone can agree on so i'll be still be covering is real next okay that's something everybody can agree on these days all right thanks ma'am damn appreciate you man thanks so much and uh... yet solving jfk listeners uh... will be will be starting our series series up on is real coming up next on solving jfk